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Old 21-09-2013, 19:46   #346
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Where did you go to school? No, a compass does not point north, as in the North Pole. It points to wherever the earth's magnetism dictates at your particular location as affected by the peculiarities of your boat.

Actually, I was taught in grade school that the compass points north. We were learning to read simple maps. We did not have the background to get all the stuff about the Earth's shifting magnetism.

I can sort of kind of get where the guy was coming from, because there's so much to learn about boats and sailing and much of it is not what you would expect. A "sheet" is a big piece of cloth on land, but on a boat it's the rope (line) that controls the sheet. The big piece of cloth is now called a sail.

In a world like that, what else can change?
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Old 21-09-2013, 19:59   #347
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
1. West Marine used to do just that. I attended quite a few.

2. I have been sailing for 3 years and never had a snatchblock on any of our boats, nor ever saw a need for one. Just my preference. Point being, that I learned a lot from reading books and the West Marine Advisors. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've linked skippers with "basic" questions to the West Advisors articles, which are now online.

Yes, there will always, thankfully, be newbies, but sometimes it gets frustrating when folks want us to their research and homework for them. It's analogous to the "What's the best $15,000 blue water cruiser I can buy but I don't know how to sail yet?" kinda post we see here regularly. And if people can't use a Google search, then I sometimes wonder how they'll be able to run a sailboat! ...or a GPS...
I'm sympathetic with those people because it wasn't that long ago that I knew next to nothing.

Having two snatch blocks on a perforated toe rail means I don't have to put in a second track for my storm sail. I can also use them to guide the anchor rode up to the cockpit. I pull it in as I ride up on the anchor, and there's no chance that the anchor rode will get tangled around the prop.

I didn't see any need for them six months ago and now I look for them at every marine market in case one of the used ones I've already bought breaks.

You probably have something very useful to you on your boat that I know nothing about. That's what makes forums like this so great.

I just sent an email out to everyone in my club asking them what they like and don't like about their roller furlers. That's really hard to research on line. What you find on line are mostly sales pitches. I found a couple of reviews, but they really weren't practical reviews. They read like they were based on manufacturer's literature. They weren't actually tested. Probably some thought "she should just go and check it out herself," but others realized that I actually valued their opinion ... and they have actually used the roller furlers, and know what they like and don't like. One guy just said "I hate mine." He didn't mention the brand. He's had a death in the family, so I'm going to go down to his boat, see what he has, and make sure I don't get it.

Sometimes you just don't know enough to do the research. Full batten or half batten on your mainsail -- which is better for my boat? I really don't know. I know the old sail has half-battens and the newer one has full battens, but I don't know which is best. I would ask other sailors to get the answer.
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Old 21-09-2013, 21:40   #348
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Where did you go to school? No, a compass does not point north, as in the North Pole. It points to wherever the earth's magnetism dictates at your particular location as affected by the peculiarities of your boat.
And possibly by the peculiarities and location of your bucket .
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Old 21-09-2013, 21:47   #349
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Oh, definitely. Write this down, so you don't mix anything up:

"What the f*** are you doing you crazy barsteward, don't you see you're about to run me the f*** down??!!"
Heh!

My kind of conversation. I can do that. I see a handheld in my future. Talking to them would be a lot simpler than playing Dodge with them.
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Old 21-09-2013, 22:31   #350
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Splendid idea, and I stand corrected. The Hyak can only do 20 knots after its last refit and after it leaves the Lopez dock and heads for its next stop at Orcas, it would be doing that 20 knots, not the 25 knots I suggested was possible. The collision occurred "one mile" north of Lopez, which gives the ferry about a mile of clear water between Shaw and Orcas. The weather was reported to be clear. There were no horn signals from the ferry, who ran over the sailboat from the stern, as the sailboat captain stated and the damage to the sailboat would indicate. A passenger witness on the ferry didn't know why the ferry didn't see the sailboat, because he could.

Are those the facts you mean?
The thing is, eyewitnesses are often not very reliable. How much did that eyewitness know about sailing? How can we be sure that the sailboat he or she saw was the one that was sunk?

There's a little restaurant near my marina I go to. A couple of months ago, I went in and sat down at an empty table. Thirty sections later, two cars collided right outside the restaurant. One driver called the police, and a woman who saw the accident waited for the police.

Meanwhile, a man in the restaurant was telling anyone who would listen, "She can't know what happened! She was sitting right there at that table (pointing at my table) when it happened!"

I told him that she was not at the table when the accident occurred, because I was sitting there, and that I would not have sat down opposite a total stranger. She was out of the restaurant by the time the accident happened.

He was really annoyed. He was CERTAIN he had seen her sitting at "my" table when the accident happened. Nothing could shake him from that. I have no idea why it was so important to him that this woman not be an eyewitness. He didn't know her; he didn't know me; he didn't know either of the drivers in the accident.

I'll be interested to hear whether or not the ferry had the video cameras mentioned here.
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Old 21-09-2013, 22:35   #351
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Its a simple enough situation based on what we know, other facts may emerge well see.]

based on what happened the ferry ran over the sailboat , when the ferry should have kept clear.

Dockhead is to be listened to when we talks about COLREGS, and its a red herring to say their are any significant differences in regards Inland.

The " turn and run" approach is not the sum total of avoiding collisions.

Dave
"Turn and run?" Who advocated that?

Is it true that these ferries only travel at about 15 knots? I can only speak for myself, but I would have no trouble determining whether or not I was on a collision course with a boat traveling that speed. It would be easy to stay out of its way, which is what I advocated -- not "turn and run." No one is the "stand on" vessel if there's no chance of a collision, and at 15 knots it would be easy to avoid. I avoid boats going at that speed all the time.
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Old 21-09-2013, 22:44   #352
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
The thing is, eyewitnesses are often not very reliable. How much did that eyewitness know about sailing? How can we be sure that the sailboat he or she saw was the one that was sunk?
Not sure how much one needs to know about sailing to notice that the ferry boat you are on just ran over a sailboat. But you have a point. Perhaps there was more than one sailboat this ferry ran over, and the others simply sank.

Brilliant.
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Old 22-09-2013, 00:43   #353
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Not sure how much one needs to know about sailing to notice that the ferry boat you are on just ran over a sailboat. But you have a point. Perhaps there was more than one sailboat this ferry ran over, and the others simply sank.

Brilliant.

Not at all what I said.
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Old 22-09-2013, 01:23   #354
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Raku, these ferries don't hold to a straight-line course. They zig and zag and go in forward and reverse. In fact, there is no bow or stern -- rather there is "End One" and "End Two". There are two bridges, and props and rudders at each end. These aren't at all like freighters on the open ocean. It's entirely possible that one moment the ferry is going one direction and all is well. A few moments later it's turned 90 degrees and you are now in mortal danger. I try to give them plenty of room, but if the ferry changes course and doesn't notice you there may be little you can do. Fortunately, the ferries usually do a great job of obeying the rules of the road.
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Old 22-09-2013, 01:44   #355
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Raku, these ferries don't hold to a straight-line course. They zig and zag and go in forward and reverse. In fact, there is no bow or stern -- rather there is "End One" and "End Two". There are two bridges, and props and rudders at each end. These aren't at all like freighters on the open ocean. It's entirely possible that one moment the ferry is going one direction and all is well. A few moments later it's turned 90 degrees and you are now in mortal danger. I try to give them plenty of room, but if the ferry changes course and doesn't notice you there may be little you can do. Fortunately, the ferries usually do a great job of obeying the rules of the road.
I never likened them to freighters anywhere, and yes, I understand that you enter on one end and exit on the other.

What I said was that if they are truly traveling at around 15k I believe I could stay clear of them. I also said I've been on them, so I am well aware of what you're saying. as for "mortal danger," I doubt that's a common occurrence or there would be many more accidents than there actually are. This accident is so weird because it's so unusual. We're all just guessing here about what happened, but personally I think a ferry captain would know what boats were around him or her.

But it really does have a bow and a stern. The captain will be facing the bow. Every crew member on the boat will know which is the bow and which is the stern, and therefore, which is port and which is starboard.

15 knots isn't all that fast and many pleasure craft travel well in excess of that. Boaters make that judgment - "Am I on a collision course?" all the time with other boats.

That's why I asked if 15 - 20k is really what we're talking about. Pleasure craft zigzag all over the place sometimes too -- probably not where this accident happened, but in more open waters.

Are we really talking about ferries moving at 15k? The fastboat to Key West goes a lot faster than that. Of course, it doesn't carry cars -- only people.
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Old 22-09-2013, 02:07   #356
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
The captain will be facing the bow.
Now I know that you will accuse me of being something or other for quoting this, but, that is a very definite statement about the captain and his position. Is that written in his contract or is he not qualified to turn around and face the stern in case he gets disoriented?

Coops.
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Old 22-09-2013, 02:11   #357
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Not sure how much one needs to know about sailing to notice that the ferry boat you are on just ran over a sailboat. But you have a point. Perhaps there was more than one sailboat this ferry ran over, and the others simply sank.

Brilliant.
Delfin,
More to the point, could the eyewitness on the ferry have been the mysterious woman who witnessed the car accident, now in disguise and in a witness protection program?

I can hardly wait for the next episode!
Cheers,
Mac
@Paul Elliot,
Your transmissions leave in the clear, the reception seems somewhat garbled, semaphore anyone?
Good attempt though.
Mac
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Old 22-09-2013, 02:22   #358
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Now I know that you will accuse me of being something or other for quoting this, but, that is a very definite statement about the captain and his position. Is that written in his contract or is he not qualified to turn around and face the stern in case he gets disoriented?

Coops.

He or she is required by law to be facing the bow at all times. The boat itself must have images of two feet painted on the floor at the captain's station. Further, the first mate is required to shackle the captain's feet together while a piece of chain must (must) attach to the housing for the steering mechanism such that the captain cannot wander away either by accident or with intent to leave those two feet painted on the deck.

This captain securement system in addition must be hooked up to siren and flashing lights, so everyone on the boat and everyone within two nautical miles of the boat will be aware that the captain has moved.

The captain is allowed one 15 minute break every four hours as well as 30 minutes for meals. So the sirens and lights won't go off, the first mate pushes the "P-button." Before leaving his or her station the captain shackles in the first mate so that he or she cannot wander away. I'm amazed that you didn't know all this!

Owwww it REALLY hurt to pull my tongue out of my cheek!
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Old 22-09-2013, 02:39   #359
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Eyewitness testimony is pretty unreliable:

The Innocence Project - Understand the Causes: Eyewitness Misidentification

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts: Scientific American

Testing the Accuracy of Eyewitness Testimony

Eyewitness Testimony Can Be Tragically Mistaken | Fallibility of Eyewitness Testimony & Memory | Law & Crime | LiveScience
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Old 22-09-2013, 02:54   #360
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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He or she is required by law to be facing the bow at all times. The boat itself must have images of two feet painted on the floor at the captain's station. Further, the first mate is required to shackle the captain's feet together while a piece of chain must (must) attach to the housing for the steering mechanism such that the captain cannot wander away either by accident or with intent to leave those two feet painted on the deck.

This captain securement system in addition must be hooked up to siren and flashing lights, so everyone on the boat and everyone within two nautical miles of the boat will be aware that the captain has moved.

The captain is allowed one 15 minute break every four hours as well as 30 minutes for meals. So the sirens and lights won't go off, the first mate pushes the "P-button." Before leaving his or her station the captain shackles in the first mate so that he or she cannot wander away. I'm amazed that you didn't know all this!

Owwww it REALLY hurt to pull my tongue out of my cheek!
Cite, please.

We just heard from an employee who said the Captain ran the eastbound legs and the mate ran the westbound legs.

So if they were doing something illegal, I'd like to read the law. (Don't worry, I've been trained to do just that.)
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