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Old 21-09-2013, 08:13   #316
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Looks like we'll have a new extreme sport for the X-Games: "ferry looping" where a racing ski cuts under those hulls. Even Hemingway himself wouldn't want to be in that dink.
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:16   #317
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Raku's right. And let's try to put the fun back in this thread as we go for 1,000 posts! LOL
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:16   #318
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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It looks to me like the dinghy is already under the ferry's bow. That is they can't see him from the bridge. He should be taking off way and giving him 5 blasts if he wants to avoid running him over. The one good thing about this ferry is there's a bit of a chance that the dinghy could pass between the hulls without getting crushed. Once a boat is under the bow of a large vessel there is very little they can do to avoid the collision, because they no longer know where the other vessel is. This is just one of the reasons for rule 2 (b). If he can't see you it is going to be up to you to get out of his way. I would note that a few peple have made a point of the ferries being on schedules. I have seen nothing in the regulations that allows a vessel on a schedule to run over another boat. A schedule is not an excuse for a collision.

No. It is not an excuse for a collision, but I think your point about sight lines may turn out to be an important part of this incident. This is why airports have traffic controllers. The pilots themselves can't keep track of all the other air traffic around them, much less be certain they judged both speed and distance accurately in all three dimensions.

Of course this means they have to turn a treendous amount of judgment and trust over to the traffic controllers. It's a job I would not want.
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:19   #319
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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When you say he should be taking off way, you mean the ferry captain, correct?
Indeed, the ferry driver.

These things can go from 37 to 20 in probably less its own length, so this can be a very effective tactic if the helmsman screws up and finds himself about to run someone down and with no place to dodge. They have like 22,000 horsepower

I'm not entirely sure, but I think they also have video cameras for docking and seeing under the bows, with a display on the bridge, so they may not have the blind spot problem someone was talking about earlier.


I have wiring in my mast for one of those on my own boat. The camera will go under the radar platform. I'm really looking forward to it (probably get around to installing it this winter), because I can't see under my bows, either, and I can't see the sides of the boat from the helm for docking.
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:26   #320
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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In the Solent, we have the Red Jet ferries ...

They terrified me when I first saw them, but I soon learned to do what everyone does -- simply ignore them. It is entirely pointless to even look at them as nothing you do affects the way they cross with you. By the time you can even see them, they are like 10 seconds away. Their speed is such that you are -- relative to them -- simply standing still. They just steer right around everything in the Solent, and I have never heard of an accident (other than something minor this year which happened while leaving the berth).
DH,

I'm very glad you mentioned this, since we, too, have pretty much the same situation here on San Francisco Bay. The ferries are extremely courteous to all sailboats, even the slower ferries that do the loop under the Golden gate Bridge and the short trip to Alcatraz, as well as the faster Vallejo ferry mentioned and photographed earlier. The sheer number of sailboats here makes their work amazing.

OTOH, we have a TSS and inbound and outbound channels for large vessels, primarily to the Port of Oakland. One stays out of their way, and they report on VTS CH 14, just like the inland rules state.

For those who keep asking about the differences between COLREGS and the inland rules, since the link was provided, why not just blinkin' read them?
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:28   #321
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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No. It is not an excuse for a collision, but I think your point about sight lines may turn out to be an important part of this incident. This is why airports have traffic controllers. The pilots themselves can't keep track of all the other air traffic around them, much less be certain they judged both speed and distance accurately in all three dimensions.

Of course this means they have to turn a treendous amount of judgment and trust over to the traffic controllers. It's a job I would not want.
Even in controlled airspace on an IFR flight plan as long as you are in visual conditions it is the responsibility of the pilot to see and avoid other aircraft. Air traffic controllers only job is to keep you separated from other IFR aircraft. The pilot is responsible for avoiding collisions with VFR aircraft. Mid-air collisions are very bad, in almost all cases the innocent as well as the guilty pay with their lives.
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:32   #322
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So we are to have no newbies?

Why not just pass a law that anyone sailing must have 20 years' experience and pass a test written up by people with 20 years' experience. That test shall be made up of those sailors' pet peeves about newcomers to sailing.

I know that when I had just started out, with 4 weeks' worth of lessons, there was a LOT of very basic stuff I did not know.

There's still a lot I don't know. Ther will always be things I don't know, even if I live to 97 and are able to keep on sailing until the day I die.

One of the things I know I didn't know anything about at that point was marine compasses. Someone asked me if I wanted a backlit one, and my answer was something along the lines of, "They make those?"

I'm sorry but I think it's a real shame if a beginner can't go into a marine supply store without being the target of derision by the staff.
Most of us learned way back in grade school that a compass points north. That's pretty basic information that has nothing to do with sailing.
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:42   #323
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

The RHIB in front of the Condor is a police boat I think and one crew member is watching the ferry, one appears to watching the sail boat and one's driving.
Perhaps they were there deliberately?
The RHIB has just swept in front of the Condor [from its stb bow] and throttled back, if they had done this in the America's Cup, Spithill would have screamed "Stbd..Stbd..@#$%it" and filed a protest.
There that's fixed that. LOL
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:59   #324
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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The Johnstone Strait via the Harney Channel? Really? Were you lost, or sightseeing?

The 5 knot sailboat was run over by the 25 knot ferry, from behind. He didn't dive under the bow , he was run over. Did I mention he was run over? The ferry captain is at fault for running over a vessel they could have, as the overtaking vessel, simply passed as the Colregs stipulate. Your understanding of the area, how much room there is, how these ferries operate makes me wonder if we're talking about the same area where I live.
So now, the ferry was going 25 knots ??

Come on! Stick to known facts!

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Old 21-09-2013, 09:10   #325
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Indeed, the ferry driver.

These things can go from 37 to 20 in probably less its own length, so this can be a very effective tactic if the helmsman screws up and finds himself about to run someone down and with no place to dodge. They have like 22,000 horsepower

I'm not entirely sure, but I think they also have video cameras for docking and seeing under the bows, with a display on the bridge, so they may not have the blind spot problem someone was talking about earlier.


I have wiring in my mast for one of those on my own boat. The camera will go under the radar platform. I'm really looking forward to it (probably get around to installing it this winter), because I can't see under my bows, either, and I can't see the sides of the boat from the helm for docking.

So the plot, as they say, thickens.

All we can do now is guess.
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Old 21-09-2013, 09:22   #326
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Okay, guys,

You know who you are, and I want to thank you for all the educational posts.

Ann
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Old 21-09-2013, 09:24   #327
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Most of us learned way back in grade school that a compass points north. That's pretty basic information that has nothing to do with sailing.

On the other hand, the customer may have been so blindsided with the attitude of the clerk ... why did the clerk even bring it up, since they all do that?

I'm an odd duck here. In calendar years I haven't been sailing all that long, but I've sailed so much in that period of time that i have learned a lot. There's still a lot to learn, but I have learned a lot. And -- I know what it is like to be a new sailor, someone who didn't grow up with it in her background as a child, and I know what it's like to be completely baffled by things that now seem "Sailing 101" to me.

It leaves me in the unusual situation of having a clear memory of what it was like to know next to nothing (4 3 hour sessions on a 16.5' sailboat barely scratches the surface.)

I would urge store owners to make sure their staff are extremely courteous and helpful to beginners, because they're likely to spend a lot of money in the next couple of years. You can be sure they don't have a good selection of charts yet. There's a lot of good books they haven't read. The cheap-as-dirt sailboat they just bought probably needs, along with that compass (not a trivial purchase) new lines, buffing compound and wax and everything that goes into using those products, bungee cords and velcro, etc. In addition, they have fallen in love with that boat and will buy it toys like cup holders and plates with nautical themes on them.

That store is going to make a lot of money from that customer if he isn't too embarrassed to come back.

Or you can lose all that business to the internet.

I think marine supply stores should hold supplementary evening classes much like the Coast Guard Auxiliary does. A class on anchoring might well result in an uptick in sales of chain, rode, related hardware and anchors. Most beginners don't realize the need to have more than one anchor. I know I didn't.

Include a section on how to use snatchblocks to retrieve your anchor without driving over the rode, and you could sell some pretty expensive hardware. Last time I looked, a snatch block for my size anchor rode was around $170. I got mine at a flea market, but I remember going to my first flea market. I didn't know what I was looking at, much less why I might want it on my boat.

Hold a class on what to have in your galley and watch the folding bowls fly out the door. Etc.
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Old 21-09-2013, 09:42   #328
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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So now, the ferry was going 25 knots ??

Come on! Stick to known facts!

Splendid idea, and I stand corrected. The Hyak can only do 20 knots after its last refit and after it leaves the Lopez dock and heads for its next stop at Orcas, it would be doing that 20 knots, not the 25 knots I suggested was possible. The collision occurred "one mile" north of Lopez, which gives the ferry about a mile of clear water between Shaw and Orcas. The weather was reported to be clear. There were no horn signals from the ferry, who ran over the sailboat from the stern, as the sailboat captain stated and the damage to the sailboat would indicate. A passenger witness on the ferry didn't know why the ferry didn't see the sailboat, because he could.

Are those the facts you mean?
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Old 21-09-2013, 09:43   #329
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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So now, the ferry was going 25 knots ??

Come on! Stick to known facts!

Looks like they go about 15 knots:

WSDOT - Ferries - VesselWatch
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Old 21-09-2013, 09:48   #330
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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1. I think marine supply stores should hold supplementary evening classes much like the Coast Guard Auxiliary does. A class on anchoring might well result in an uptick in sales of chain, rode, related hardware and anchors. Most beginners don't realize the need to have more than one anchor. I know I didn't.

2. Include a section on how to use snatchblocks to retrieve your anchor without driving over the rode, and you could sell some pretty expensive hardware. Last time I looked, a snatch block for my size anchor rode was around $170. I got mine at a flea market, but I remember going to my first flea market. I didn't know what I was looking at, much less why I might want it on my boat.
1. West Marine used to do just that. I attended quite a few.

2. I have been sailing for 3 years and never had a snatchblock on any of our boats, nor ever saw a need for one. Just my preference. Point being, that I learned a lot from reading books and the West Marine Advisors. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've linked skippers with "basic" questions to the West Advisors articles, which are now online.

Yes, there will always, thankfully, be newbies, but sometimes it gets frustrating when folks want us to their research and homework for them. It's analogous to the "What's the best $15,000 blue water cruiser I can buy but I don't know how to sail yet?" kinda post we see here regularly. And if people can't use a Google search, then I sometimes wonder how they'll be able to run a sailboat! ...or a GPS...
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