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Old 21-09-2013, 06:09   #301
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
EU and the Rest of the World inland waterways rules maybe worth checking as you guys chose to be different in Navigation to the normal...
That was actually one of the points I was sneaking up on.

Specifically, does expertise in the COLREGS for the English Channel confer expertise on the Inland COLREGS for Puget Sound?

I was going to word it with slightly more tact, and establish a few more premises first, but since you led the elephant into the room, I'll shoot it.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:10   #302
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Okay, thanks.

So there are two sets of rules, and they change when I cross a line on a chart.

I'll look at the differences.

Is there more than one set of inland rules?
There used to be different rules for the Great Lakes, so-called "Western Rivers", and the just regular inland rules, and you can imagine what headaches that caused. They were all harmonized and superseded by the new Inland Rules.

The differences to Colregs are mostly limited to situations specific to river navigation -- different lights and signals, different rules about behavior in narrow channels. Interestingly, the concept of "right of way" does appear once in the Inland Rules (no where in the Colregs) -- in the case where a vessel is navigating downstream with a current.

But the main rules of collision avoidance are word-for-word identical between Colregs (also called "International Rules") and Inland Rules.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:11   #303
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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My phrasing was manners, Dockhead, nothing more.
Of course, no problem. I was just emphasizing that it really is like that.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:15   #304
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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That was actually one of the points I was sneaking up on.

Specifically, does expertise in the COLREGS for the English Channel confer expertise on the Inland COLREGS for Puget Sound?

I was going to word it with slightly more tact, and establish a few more premises first, but since you led the elephant into the room, I'll shoot it.
Colregs are international rules which were adopted world-wide by the Convention on the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea signed in London in 1972.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:18   #305
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
That was actually one of the points I was sneaking up on.

Specifically, does expertise in the COLREGS for the English Channel confer expertise on the Inland COLREGS for Puget Sound?

I was going to word it with slightly more tact, and establish a few more premises first, but since you led the elephant into the room, I'll shoot it.
Inland rules are basically the same as ColReg's restricted waters rules... keep to your side of the channel... if your the overtaking vessel, limit your speed till there is a suitably clear space ahead to overtake while maintaining a safe distance from the vessel you are passing...
Kinda like driving down a narrow road... Safety is the goal/key.
You do not swerve into oncoming traffic and neither do you swerve into the ditch on the verge...
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:30   #306
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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It's wise to be a big radar "target." Plastic and wooden boats should consider having multiple radar reflectors.

The one I have (maybe they're all like this) come apart into flat pieces and takes up virually no storage space.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:34   #307
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Well you have never been in this channel.

It's worse then driving on a freeway.

I've been in this channel when there are 2 or 3 plastic boats doing 15--20 knots, 2 WA State Ferries, a couple of fast fish boats, and a dozen day riders, then add in 2-6 Sail boats.

The tides and currents are on a schedule, and the Ferries are on a schedule, all other traffic is trying to dodge one another.

Let You're head Swivel, this is a day and a life in Upright Channel.

Lloyd
What you're describing would be worse than driving on a freeway. At least we have clear directional lanes, and everyone knows where everyone else is supposed to be.

And then there's brakes. Cars and trucks have 'em and boats don't, I've noticed.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:55   #308
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What's a "sterile cockpit"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterile_Cockpit_Rule
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Old 21-09-2013, 07:05   #309
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

So what would happen in this case?

The perspective is probably off but if the scenario is as it seems, the dingy is the stand-on vessel, the ferry is the give-way vessel and the sailboat is a constraining vessel on the port side.

The sailing vessel has her main up but not much heel so we will assume that she's making between 3-5 knots, the ferry is rated at 35 kn with an average of 27 and the dinghy can most likely move at around 20 kn (these are all just guesses).

Would the ferry give 2 long and 1 short to pass on the starboard side (1 short on the Great Lakes)?
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Old 21-09-2013, 07:27   #310
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For those who believe that all in boats know all the rules. I work in a chandlery part time and today, just before we close, a guy comes in and says that he wants a compass. I ask him what kind, says that he does not know. Ask him what style, bulkhead mount, flush mount etc., says no idea. Ask him what his requirements are and he tells me that he is required to have one. Ask him if he wants it to point north? He asks me if that is the best kind. can you believe this crap?

Coops.
Probably needed it to figure out the best way to get out of the way from fast and big ships.
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Old 21-09-2013, 07:33   #311
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
That's simply not fair.

What the person FlyingCloud1937 you misquoted actually said was:

"As I said in my post Ive have been in this exact channel at least twice yearly some times more never less.

I spend 6 weeks annual between Seattle and Johnstone Straight. I crorss all maner of Shipping Lanes, and channels with 6 to 7 knot currents.

This Particular area is a concern for any Pilot of any vessel. So because of the traffic, and the constrained area of navigation...you never leave the helm....PERIOD...Whether you spend 2 seconds looking at the screen, or falling asleep. "

Perhaps this is why they have stenographers in court.
Well, that makes more sense than the way I read it. My point was that the location where this incident occurred has plenty of room to maneuver and has rather less traffic this time of year than suggested. But thank you for the correction!
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Old 21-09-2013, 07:45   #312
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
So what would happen in this case?

The perspective is probably off but if the scenario is as it seems, the dingy is the stand-on vessel, the ferry is the give-way vessel and the sailboat is a constraining vessel on the port side.

The sailing vessel has her main up but not much heel so we will assume that she's making between 3-5 knots, the ferry is rated at 35 kn with an average of 27 and the dinghy can most likely move at around 20 kn (these are all just guesses).

Would the ferry give 2 long and 1 short to pass on the starboard side (1 short on the Great Lakes)?
It looks to me like the dinghy is already under the ferry's bow. That is they can't see him from the bridge. He should be taking off way and giving him 5 blasts if he wants to avoid running him over. The one good thing about this ferry is there's a bit of a chance that the dinghy could pass between the hulls without getting crushed. Once a boat is under the bow of a large vessel there is very little they can do to avoid the collision, because they no longer know where the other vessel is. This is just one of the reasons for rule 2 (b). If he can't see you it is going to be up to you to get out of his way. I would note that a few peple have made a point of the ferries being on schedules. I have seen nothing in the regulations that allows a vessel on a schedule to run over another boat. A schedule is not an excuse for a collision.
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Old 21-09-2013, 07:55   #313
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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It looks to me like the dinghy is already under the ferry's bow. That is they can't see him from the bridge. He should be taking off way and giving him 5 blasts if he wants to avoid running him over. The one good thing about this ferry is there's a bit of a chance that the dinghy could pass between the hulls without getting crushed.
Well that would certainly add to the "pucker factor".

When you say he should be taking off way, you mean the ferry captain, correct?
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:10   #314
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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It looks to me like the dinghy is already under the ferry's bow. That is they can't see him from the bridge. He should be taking off way and giving him 5 blasts if he wants to avoid running him over. The one good thing about this ferry is there's a bit of a chance that the dinghy could pass between the hulls without getting crushed. Once a boat is under the bow of a large vessel there is very little they can do to avoid the collision, because they no longer know where the other vessel is. This is just one of the reasons for rule 2 (b). If he can't see you it is going to be up to you to get out of his way. I would note that a few peple have made a point of the ferries being on schedules. I have seen nothing in the regulations that allows a vessel on a schedule to run over another boat. A schedule is not an excuse for a collision.

Indeed.

In fact, a criminal trial was just held with respect to one of those Condor ferries, which ran down a French fishing vessel, killing people.

If the dinghy is under the bows already, then there is nothing anyone can do about the now inevitable collision.

But in this case, I think the perspective is flattened by the long lens, and there is still a good distance to go.

If the ferry helmsman can still see the RIB, then two long and one short and go around his starboard side. Or simply take off way until he can pass safely to port. The speed of those vessels goes from 37 knots to 20 knots very quickly when power is taken off. In open water, those Condor ferries are the most maneuverable vessels in the world -- like a F1 car compared to our boats. They are enormously powerful, with high rates of acceleration and deceleration, and very high rates of turn. I've seen videos of the bridge -- those guys drive them like playing a video game.


In the Solent, we have the Red Jet ferries plying between Southampton and Cowes twice an hour. These go 40+ knots even in the restricted and extremely crowded waters of the Solent. When my boat is spending the winter in Cowes, I ride these ferries myself and like to sit in the front with a view ahead. These guys drive like a game of dodge-em cars -- it is incredible -- using the huge power and maneuverability of those fast cats to just pick through the crowd of vessels in the Solent, darting this way and that. They have relatively shallow draft (less than my boat) so they like to steam over the Bramble Bank where there is never any traffic, if there is sufficient rise of tide.

They terrified me when I first saw them, but I soon learned to do what everyone does -- simply ignore them. It is entirely pointless to even look at them as nothing you do affects the way they cross with you. By the time you can even see them, they are like 10 seconds away. Their speed is such that you are -- relative to them -- simply standing still. They just steer right around everything in the Solent, and I have never heard of an accident (other than something minor this year which happened while leaving the berth).
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Old 21-09-2013, 08:12   #315
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Probably needed it to figure out the best way to get out of the way from fast and big ships.

So we are to have no newbies?

Why not just pass a law that anyone sailing must have 20 years' experience and pass a test written up by people with 20 years' experience. That test shall be made up of those sailors' pet peeves about newcomers to sailing.

I know that when I had just started out, with 4 weeks' worth of lessons, there was a LOT of very basic stuff I did not know.

There's still a lot I don't know. Ther will always be things I don't know, even if I live to 97 and are able to keep on sailing until the day I die.

One of the things I know I didn't know anything about at that point was marine compasses. Someone asked me if I wanted a backlit one, and my answer was something along the lines of, "They make those?"

I'm sorry but I think it's a real shame if a beginner can't go into a marine supply store without being the target of derision by the staff.
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