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Old 20-09-2013, 23:40   #286
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The Johnstone Strait via the Harney Channel? Really? Were you lost, or sightseeing?... Your understanding of the area, how much room there is, how these ferries operate makes me wonder if we're talking about the same area where I live.

That's simply not fair.

What the person FlyingCloud1937 you misquoted actually said was:

"As I said in my post Ive have been in this exact channel at least twice yearly some times more never less.

I spend 6 weeks annual between Seattle and Johnstone Straight. I crorss all maner of Shipping Lanes, and channels with 6 to 7 knot currents.

This Particular area is a concern for any Pilot of any vessel. So because of the traffic, and the constrained area of navigation...you never leave the helm....PERIOD...Whether you spend 2 seconds looking at the screen, or falling asleep. "

Perhaps this is why they have stenographers in court.
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Old 21-09-2013, 00:28   #287
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
I was just looking at Dockhead's sailing area using Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions.

No wonder you know a thing or two about the COLREGs.

There are hundreds of ships in there at this minute moving between 10 and 25 knots. There's even what looks like a sailboat race coming out of the Solent heading towards France (looks like 15 or more) and these are only the boats with AIS.

It looks like the LA freeway at rush hour.
yes it does. We have th same situation (albeit no quite so many ships/boats here in the sound between Denmark/sweden). This is what Raku doesn't understand and refuses to acknowledge. I very open waters with no or little other traffic, it is perfectly feasible to say, "any time I see a large ship/ferry, I will get as far away form him as I possibly can" NOthing wrong with doing that. When there are literally hundreds of boats/ship/ferries and you decide to "just get out of the way", you might be getting out of one boats way, but screwing up everyone else's appraisal of the situaiton. Frequently, another boat will have taken the proper action to avoid you, you make a maneuver that goes against the Colregs and now you've the that other boat in danger.

Dockhead is absolutely correct. You simply have to follow the colregs, especially when there is a lot of traffic.

Raku, if the thought of a lot of traffic scares the crap out of you, I'd advise you never to sail where there is traffic.
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Old 21-09-2013, 00:41   #288
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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God, I just thought of something.

I'm looking at this in real time. Where I'm at, it's 7:00pm and where they are at is 5 hours ahead so it 11:00pm there. They're doing this at NIGHT.

Oh man, I'm heading for the liquor cabinet just thinking about that.
Ah yes, frank, Look at the strait of Denmark, not quite as bad. I went through there a couple of weeks ago in Force 8-9 winds in the middle of then night.

Quite entertaining actually. We were flying at 11-12 knots and everyone else was moving at 15-20 knots.

You really have to trust that everyone else knows and WILL follow the regs.
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Old 21-09-2013, 04:17   #289
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
It was a flat, dark night, and the people I had on my boat had never been out at night before. I thought demonstrating one use of a spotlight might be a good thing, because I KNOW some of them will go out and buy a boat. I did right after finishing that class.

I don't recall which one it was he had spotted and which one he hadn't, but we were headed dead-on for the one he hadn't spotted on the water.

Nice guy. First time out at night. The important part is that he was so fascinated by the chart plotter that he wasn't connecting it to what was really going on around him.
Reason I asked was usually a channel has timed Green and Red flashes on buoys so you can see the buoys and also by the number of flashes know where you are in the channel... using a Spot just destroys what little night vision one has left from having a CP screen under your nose... could explain why he could not see the other buoy
So I assume this is an unlit channel you guys have to travel...
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Old 21-09-2013, 04:47   #290
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Here is a link to "Boating regulations in the state of Washington" and here is a State PDF on the same topic.

...Don't you think they would even mention it if they had changed the colregs?
Reading through these links, (for the first time, I've never seen the Washington State Parks PDF "Adventures In Boating" before) one of the first things that jumps out at me is in the "Definitions In This Handbook" section, on page 9.

I quote:

"Inland waters means the waters within the territorial limits of Washington state shoreward of the demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers, bays, sounds, and other inland waters, as established in Chapter 33, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 80, which are not governed by the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, (72 COLREGS), Title 33, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 81-72, Appendix A." (My emphasis, the original bold around "Inland waters" exists in the PDF.)

At first glance, this seems to say that somewhere, there exists some body of water within Washington State in which the COLREGS don't apply.
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Old 21-09-2013, 04:49   #291
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

For those who believe that all in boats know all the rules. I work in a chandlery part time and today, just before we close, a guy comes in and says that he wants a compass. I ask him what kind, says that he does not know. Ask him what style, bulkhead mount, flush mount etc., says no idea. Ask him what his requirements are and he tells me that he is required to have one. Ask him if he wants it to point north? He asks me if that is the best kind. can you believe this crap?

Coops.
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Old 21-09-2013, 04:56   #292
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Coops... nearly got flip then... but 'Luddite Humour' isn't appreciated on a 21st Century boating Forum...
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Old 21-09-2013, 05:05   #293
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Reading through these links, (for the first time, I've never seen the Washington State Parks PDF "Adventures In Boating" before) one of the first things that jumps out at me is in the "Definitions In This Handbook" section, on page 9.

I quote:

"Inland waters means the waters within the territorial limits of Washington state shoreward of the demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers, bays, sounds, and other inland waters, as established in Chapter 33, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 80, which are not governed by the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, (72 COLREGS), Title 33, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 81-72, Appendix A." (My emphasis, the original bold around "Inland waters" exists in the PDF.)

At first glance, this seems to say that somewhere, there exists some body of water within Washington State in which the COLREGS don't apply.
This only says that when inside the colregs lines you use the inland rules rather than the international rules. There are actually very few differences these days between the International rules and the inland rules, mostly to do with navigation in rivers. There are no differences between the the inland and international rules in either rule 13 (overtaking) or rule 17 (actions of the stand-on vessel) which seem to be the subject of this discussion.
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Old 21-09-2013, 05:22   #294
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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This only says that when inside the colregs lines you use the inland rules rather than the international rules. There are actually very few differences these days between the International rules and the inland rules, mostly to do with navigation in rivers. There are no differences between the the inland and international rules in either rule 13 (overtaking) or rule 17 (actions of the stand-on vessel) which seem to be the subject of this discussion.
Okay...

So...

Not to be difficult, but does that mean everyone who has been jumping up and down about the COLREGS has actually been pointing to the wrong set of rules? That, in fact, the regs our friends from (for instance) the English Channel are actually governed by a different set of regs than the sailboat and the ferry that are the subjects of this thread?

You seem to be saying that there are (at least) two sets of rules, and applying the correct set is a function of location.

And that our little postage stamp of water here in Puget Sound is operating under a different set than the experts from Liverpool, Maine, Florida, San Diego or Hawaii.

Did I understand that right?
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Old 21-09-2013, 05:28   #295
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

not really...but being specific helps...

usually if you really know the rules (at least for your own country and I'm sure there are some with many more differences than the USA)...then discussing them in general terms is pretty widely accepted...and just noting where a difference may be an issue.

Of course someone has to point out early in the discussion where the event took place...either int or inland waters.

here's the first page of the US version if you haven't seen it...

http://navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule1
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Old 21-09-2013, 05:31   #296
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Okay...

So...

Not to be difficult, but does that mean everyone who has been jumping up and down about the COLREGS has actually been pointing to the wrong set of rules?

You seem to be saying that there are (at least) two sets of rules, and applying the correct set is a function of location.

Did I understand that right?
As Capt Bill wrote, there are no differences between Inland Rules and Colregs for the scenario discussed in this thread.

And yes, Capt Bill does not just "seem to be saying", but it is absolutely a fact, that Inland Rules apply in all kinds of places in the U.S., and you absolutely need to know them if you sail in such places. The point at which you shift from one set to the other is marked on your charts.

Here is a good resource:

INTERNATIONAL AND INLAND RULES

Here is a line-by-line comparison between the two sets of rules, which shows the differences:

Navigation Rules Online

Rule 17, which has been most discussed, is identical, word for word, between the two sets of rules:

"Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel (a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.


(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required [N.B.!] to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision."


What this means for a vessel being overtaken is the following:

1. Prior to the time that a "risk of collision" exists, you are free to maneuver as you like. If you see a fast ferry approaching from far away and you know you are in the usual lane or channel where this ferry will pass, it is an excellent idea to get out of the way, get out of the lane or channel and into water where you know the ferry won't be coming.

2. If the ferry approaching from behind already seems to be on a course to run you down, then you must not maneuver. You are required to hold your course and speed and give the ferry captain a chance to be in control of the situation and make his own maneuver. Violating this rule increases the risk of collision. VHF contact, if there is time, or a white collision flare, is an excellent idea at this point, if you are not sure that the ferry sees you.

Personally, I would not mess around with the VHF. By the time you are at risk of collision with a fast vessel overtaking, it is unlikely that you will have time to establish contact on radio. The MCA, in fact, discourages using radio in risk of collision cases. This is really the case for the white collision flare. I keep one in my cockpit table for exactly this case.

3. If the ferry captain does not maneuver -- that is, if it "becomes evident" that he is not avoiding you, then you may attempt to maneuver yourself. The problem with this -- in a slow sailboat -- is that it will not be evident, generally, until it is too late to do anything yourself. The distance between you and the ferry at which it is possible for you to maneuver clear, is far greater than the distance at which the ferry can still avoid you. So that point at which you are allowed to start maneuvering yourself is usually far too late to do you any good.

4. When the ferry is close enough that his own maneuver cannot be enough to avoid the collision, then you are required to try to get out of his way yourself. However, if a 20 knot ferry is already too close to avoid you, then there is definitely nothing you can do in a 5 knot boat to avoid the collision. That is the geometrical reality of being overtaken in a slow boat by a fast one. That is why you are as dependent on the diligence of the ferry captain, during this phase, as you are dependent on the diligence of drivers approaching your car from behind as you stand at a red light. That's why the VHF call or white collision flare is a really good idea, in Phase 2, if you are not sure that he has seen you.
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Old 21-09-2013, 05:55   #297
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Okay, thanks.

So there are two sets of rules, and they change when I cross a line on a chart.

I'll look at the differences.

Is there more than one set of inland rules?
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:05   #298
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

At first glance, differences only occur in rules 1, 9, 24 and 34.
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:06   #299
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Okay, thanks.

So there are two sets of rules, and they change when I cross a line on a chart.

I'll look at the differences.

Is there more than one set of inland rules?
EU and the Rest of the World inland waterways rules maybe worth checking as you guys chose to be different in Navigation to the normal...
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Old 21-09-2013, 06:07   #300
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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And yes, Capt Bill does not just "seem to be saying", but it is absolutely a fact,
My phrasing was manners, Dockhead, nothing more.
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