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Old 20-09-2013, 18:42   #256
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So if he was in fact at the wheel, but was sleeping would you call that being on Watch? When driving a car and texting, are you still in control of the car, even though you are setting at the wheel.

It's very simple, piloting requires your full attention to the control of the vessel, car, or airplane, other wise you are not in control, therby not piloting.

Taking your eyes off the controls, and visual course is not in control...you may as well be below decks sleeping.

Clearly, the man piloting this sail boat...was not in fact piloting...even though he was at the wheel.

Lloyd
Lloyd, assuming this sailboat captain was paying attention. What was his responsibility as the vessel being overtaken? To stay on course, which I presume is what he was doing as he busied himself with his electronics. He still go run over because the ferry boat captain wasn't paying attention. True, if he had actually been keeping watch, he might have done what any sensible mouse does when he observes a tank heading in his direction, which is to wander away from the apparent course of the tank. That's what I do if I have any concerns that the ferry may have to alter course to avoid other traffic, or if the channel is restricted. So in that, the sailboat captain bears some responsibility. But he GOT RUN OVER, which means the blame for this mess is on the ferry boat captain with a stern reminder to the sailboat captain (as if he needs it now) to pay attention next time.

I don't think people who haven't seen these ferries in action have any clue how fast they move and how maneuverable they are, and how often they are darting around to avoid exactly what happened here.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:52   #257
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
Just to refresh your memory here is the unedited cut and paste of the first part of your rant...

"Actually it's been mentioned, although not quoted (thank you). That is the situation where I live. Tampa Bay is quite shallow, and so is the Gulf of Mexico, especially within, say, 25 miles of shore in most places. A very specific channel has been cut for freighters and cruise liners. That actually makes it easier because you know exactly where that big boat is going to be, because if it doesn't, it's going to run aground. There is absolutely no doubt that those freighters and cruise ships are the stand-on vessels. They have nowhere to go except through that channel.

I'm not sure the path for the ferry was that cut and dried in the accident that started this discussion. Nevertheless, something went very wrong that day, and it's the little boat that's going to sink, not the big one. I could be wrong, but I believe I am capable of staying clear of ferries. The guy who lost his boat must also be capable of it, since apparently he sailed those waters for fifty years. I think it was so familiar to him that he didn't think about it being a poor choice to get so involved with his electronics where he was. For fifty years he was somehow able to stay out of those ferries' way, and I believe I would be able to do the same thing -- under sail or under power. It's not rocket science.

This has all been a giant pissing contest to try to prove that some people "know the colregs" better than others. A tremendous amount of ego has been involved. To me it reminds me of tin soldiers marching around. Behavior counts as much as seamanship. I'm not going to stand on my little 31' sailboat and announce "I'm the stand on vessel -- YOU MOVE." I'm going to get out of the way, and YES, I will do it in a timely way so I do not end up under that freighter's bow. "

Please re-read it and highlight where you said you were "guessing" or "speculating".
Or apologise?
I am having a nice day.
Mac

Sorry. I've retired from remedial reading.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:54   #258
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
...with a stern reminder ...
No pun intended?
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:01   #259
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

I've spent some thirty years dodging NW ferries, and all other large shipping in the NW.

Year in Year out.

If the skipper piloting is in fact not Piloting, then whether his boat is on course is debatable.

As I said in my post Ive have been in this exact channel at least twice yearly some times more never less.

I spend 6 weeks annual between Seattle and Johnstone Straight. I crorss all maner of Shipping Lanes, and channels with 6 to 7 knot currents.

This Particular area is a concern for any Pilot of any vessel. So because of the traffic, and the constrained area of navigation...you never leave the helm....PERIOD...Whether you spend 2 seconds looking at the screen, or falling asleep.

If this were the day and age of plotting on paper charts, you certainly would't leave the helm, and go below to plot your course....so equally you wouldn't loose track of time and/or have you're nose in any electronic aid to navigation.

I'm sorry this whole incident could have been avoided by a person piloting the sail boat.

Expecting the Ferry Captain to assume the the sail vessel was in charge/control would be the protocol. The Ferry Captain/Bridge has fault to the point that they assumed the sail boat was in fact being Piloted by an able Body Skipper.

So been there done that for the last 30 plus years.

lloyd






Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Lloyd, assuming this sailboat captain was paying attention. What was his responsibility as the vessel being overtaken? To stay on course, which I presume is what he was doing as he busied himself with his electronics. He still go run over because the ferry boat captain wasn't paying attention. True, if he had actually been keeping watch, he might have done what any sensible mouse does when he observes a tank heading in his direction, which is to wander away from the apparent course of the tank. That's what I do if I have any concerns that the ferry may have to alter course to avoid other traffic, or if the channel is restricted. So in that, the sailboat captain bears some responsibility. But he GOT RUN OVER, which means the blame for this mess is on the ferry boat captain with a stern reminder to the sailboat captain (as if he needs it now) to pay attention next time.

I don't think people who haven't seen these ferries in action have any clue how fast they move and how maneuverable they are, and how often they are darting around to avoid exactly what happened here.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:04   #260
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Sterile cockpit rule if you have ferries within 10,000 feet.
You have enhanced situational awareness even in fog with AIS.
However, adhere to Raku's teaching of "don't disappear into your electronics.

Timers are extremely helpful to captains. I keep 3-4 at my pilothouse helm station. One count down timer specifically takes me through an ingrained habit, "timer Reset - GPS - Sounder - AIS, visuals: fore, starboard, aft, port". In a busy harbor that timer may be on a 2 minute cycle. At Sea it might be on 10-12 minutes. Note: even at two minutes I keep interim watch-- that is just an interrupt in case something else happens. The interrupt reminds me to continue piloting.

Another timer runs on an hourly count down to monitor engine, fuel gauges, radar scope.

If you keep repeating to yourself "head's on a swivel" you'll remain alive to continue positing on the Forum!
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:04   #261
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
As a matter of curiosity.. why did you need to shine the spot on the green buoy...

It was a flat, dark night, and the people I had on my boat had never been out at night before. I thought demonstrating one use of a spotlight might be a good thing, because I KNOW some of them will go out and buy a boat. I did right after finishing that class.

I don't recall which one it was he had spotted and which one he hadn't, but we were headed dead-on for the one he hadn't spotted on the water.

Nice guy. First time out at night. The important part is that he was so fascinated by the chart plotter that he wasn't connecting it to what was really going on around him.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:05   #262
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Lloyd, assuming this sailboat captain was paying attention. What was his responsibility as the vessel being overtaken? To stay on course, which I presume is what he was doing as he busied himself with his electronics.
.
or...said something...or... moved closer to the edge of the channel...or... sounded his horn...

I'm on Raku's side here. Avoid the big boats. Go to great lengths not to be in their paths in the first place.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:07   #263
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Lloyd, assuming this sailboat captain was paying attention. What was his responsibility as the vessel being overtaken? To stay on course, which I presume is what he was doing as he busied himself with his electronics. He still go run over because the ferry boat captain wasn't paying attention. True, if he had actually been keeping watch, he might have done what any sensible mouse does when he observes a tank heading in his direction, which is to wander away from the apparent course of the tank. That's what I do if I have any concerns that the ferry may have to alter course to avoid other traffic, or if the channel is restricted. So in that, the sailboat captain bears some responsibility. But he GOT RUN OVER, which means the blame for this mess is on the ferry boat captain with a stern reminder to the sailboat captain (as if he needs it now) to pay attention next time.

I don't think people who haven't seen these ferries in action have any clue how fast they move and how maneuverable they are, and how often they are darting around to avoid exactly what happened here.

I have been on those ferries, and we have one here in Florida, too -- really fast, goes from Ft. Myers to Key West inf 4 hours flat. (The food is terrible, so if you ever take it, wait until you get to Key West to eat.)

So I wonder here who hasn't seen fast ferries in action. Or other fast boats, for that matter. I think everyone here has had to look at a fast boat or ship and make judgments. Once again, erroneous assumptions rule ...
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:07   #264
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Quote:
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or...said something...or... moved closer to the edge of the channel...or... sounded his horn...

I'm on Raku's side here. Avoid the big boats. Go to great lengths not to be in their paths in the first place.
+1 $100 in iPad apps will give you the BIG weather picture AND the BIG ship picture. Giving you time to get out of the way.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:08   #265
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
... I took the boat the rest of the way in ... He was even seeing them from a different height as my boat is "tall" for its size and the little Catalinas they learn on are low. He didn't do anything wrong except never help sail a bigger boat before, and not have sailed at night before, but people can really be sucked in looking at the electronics.

We'll have to see what the inquiry finds.

Thread Drift Alert: This is the first example I've read of a Hunter owner suggesting a Hunter was better in some way than a Catalina. Taller is better. I'd have thought otherwise. I just shopped a hundred boats in the 30' range. I would have been embarrassed to say I bought a Hunter.

With apologies as required.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:09   #266
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I've spent some thirty years dodging NW ferries, and all other large shipping in the NW.

Year in Year out.

If the skipper piloting is in fact not Piloting, then whether his boat is on course is debatable.

As I said in my post Ive have been in this exact channel at least twice yearly some times more never less.

I spend 6 weeks annual between Seattle and Johnstone Straight. I crorss all maner of Shipping Lanes, and channels with 6 to 7 knot currents.

This Particular area is a concern for any Pilot of any vessel. So because of the traffic, and the constrained area of navigation...you never leave the helm....PERIOD...Whether you spend 2 seconds looking at the screen, or falling asleep.

If this were the day and age of plotting on paper charts, you certainly would't leave the helm, and go below to plot your course....so equally you wouldn't loose track of time and/or have you're nose in any electronic aid to navigation.

I'm sorry this whole incident could have been avoided by a person piloting the sail boat.

Expecting the Ferry Captain to assume the the sail vessel was in charge/control would be the protocol. The Ferry Captain/Bridge has fault to the point that they assumed the sail boat was in fact being Piloted by an able Body Skipper.

So been there done that for the last 30 plus years.

lloyd

Lloyd, that's how I think it's going to play out. Could be wrong, but that's what I think is going to happen.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:10   #267
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by SecondBase View Post
+1 $100 in iPad apps will give you the BIG weather picture AND the BIG ship picture. Giving you time to get out of the way.
They're huge. You can see them in plenty of time, if you're looking.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:11   #268
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondBase View Post
Sterile cockpit rule if you have ferries within 10,000 feet.
You have enhanced situational awareness even in fog with AIS.
However, adhere to Raku's teaching of "don't disappear into your electronics.

Timers are extremely helpful to captains. I keep 3-4 at my pilothouse helm station. One count down timer specifically takes me through an ingrained habit, "timer Reset - GPS - Sounder - AIS, visuals: fore, starboard, aft, port". In a busy harbor that timer may be on a 2 minute cycle. At Sea it might be on 10-12 minutes. Note: even at two minutes I keep interim watch-- that is just an interrupt in case something else happens. The interrupt reminds me to continue piloting.

Another timer runs on an hourly count down to monitor engine, fuel gauges, radar scope.

If you keep repeating to yourself "head's on a swivel" you'll remain alive to continue positing on the Forum!

My head swivels like an owl. This isn't driving on the freeway ...
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:19   #269
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

I love how amateur boaters think they can even begin to imagine what a professional captain of higher ratings is thinking when it comes to avoiding recreational boaters....

First of all...it's a roll of the dice to maneuver your vessel thinking that the amateur is going to follow the NAVRULEs...do they even know what the NAVRULEs are all about.?????

Obviously from this thread you can see their dilemma.
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Old 20-09-2013, 19:19   #270
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Thread Drift Alert: This is the first example I've read of a Hunter owner suggesting a Hunter was better in some way than a Catalina. Taller is better. I'd have thought otherwise. I just shopped a hundred boats in the 30' range. I would have been embarrassed to say I bought a Hunter.

With apologies as required.

You completely misunderstood. The students learn on a little 16.5' Catalina. Full fin keel, but a little boat. A 31' ANYTHING is a big change.

And I do think my 31' Hunter is better than a 30' Catalina. That's why I picked the Hunter over a Catalina. I like the 27' Catalina but not the 30'. Don't like the lines; don't like the cabin'; too slow.
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