Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-09-2013, 14:00   #196
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1344753]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

But of course you know I wasn't talking about your situation.

If I see A FERRY I'm going to stay out of its way.
My point was that you cannot "stay out of the way" of a ferry, or any other vessel, approaching you from behind at high speed, at any distance where you will have much idea about which way you need to dodge.

Besides that, unless you have AIS (recommended, by the way, even for the smallest of boats), you will be unable to determine which way to go, until it's too late.

My other point, was that attempting to dodge in that situation, when you are the stand-on vessel, is a violation of the rules and can be extremely dangerous, as you may dodge right under his bows. In some situations one vessel has to "hold still" - -that is, maintain course and speed -- so that the other vessel can work out and implement a solution. Both vessels maneuvering at the same time results in chaos which causes collisions. That is fundamental to how the rules work.


Of course if you are sailing in a bay, or in a harbor, with known lanes for large shipping, or channels, then you can -- and should -- "stay out of the way" by sticking to waters too shallow for large shipping, avoiding known lanes or channels, and generally keeping out of those places where you know big ships are going to be. This is correct seamanship. But totally irrelevant in open waters, like where the OP's incident occurred.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:07   #197
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1344870]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

My point was that you cannot "stay out of the way" of a ferry, or any other vessel, approaching you from behind at high speed, at any distance where you will have much idea about which way you need to dodge.

Besides that, unless you have AIS (recommended, by the way, even for the smallest of boats), you will be unable to determine which way to go, until it's too late.

My other point, was that attempting to dodge in that situation, when you are the stand-on vessel, is a violation of the rules and can be extremely dangerous, as you may dodge right under his bows. In some situations one vessel has to "hold still" - -that is, maintain course and speed -- so that the other vessel can work out and implement a solution. Both vessels maneuvering at the same time results in chaos which causes collisions. That is fundamental to how the rules work.


Of course if you are sailing in a bay, or in a harbor, with known lanes for large shipping, or channels, then you can -- and should -- "stay out of the way" by sticking to waters too shallow for large shipping, avoiding known lanes or channels, and generally keeping out of those places where you know big ships are going to be. This is correct seamanship. But totally irrelevant in open waters, like where the OP's incident occurred.

We got your point 200 posts ago. you thin you're a genius because you know what "stand on" means.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:26   #198
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
We got your point 200 posts ago. you thin you're a genius because you know what "stand on" means.
LOL, that's a good one! If it were only so easy to be a genius!

Actually, the concept is accessible to probably 97% of the range of human intelligence. It is not at all rocket science. However, there are those 3% for whom no amount of education makes any difference . . .
__________________
Dockhead is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:31   #199
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Here you go, D-Head:

I am stupid. I am out on my boat, by myself, paying no attention whatsoever to what is going on around me because I'm mesmerized by my electronics. Some hours ago there was some fog, so it is vitally important *right now* that I check my settings. And there is a ferry behind me. It is a big, fast, ferry.

I am the stand-on vessel. If I turn, the poor ferry captain will not be able to judge whether or not she can miss me. I must STAY on the collision course even though there is time to move away.

I will now say the words you want to hear: I am the stand-on vessel. I may up standing on the skinking remains of my boag, but by GOD I'm not going to move becaue that poor ferry captain will have NO idea what to do! The world will stop spinning if I move now, but 30 seconds ago I was free to move -- IF Dockhead says I was free to move, because only Dockhead can judge whether or not I can avoid a collision by moving.

See, if I can avoid a collision by moving, I'm not really the stand-on vessel, because there is still time to avoid a collision and we can't confuse that poor, stupid, ferry captain.

Well, in that scenario the ferry captain DIDNT give way, and now the man's boat is at the bottom of the channel.

You do what you want to do. Wave the Col-Regs about. Put up signal flags that say "I've read the colregs."

Me? I'm going to get out of the way. Oh, I know -- my BADGE! I'll show him my BADGE!

I was the stand-on vessel when that idiot did hit my boat. He will never acknowledge it. He believes he had the "right of way."

If I had insisted that I was the stand-on vessel the next time, which I was, he would have hit me AGAIN. The heck with that -- I just got out of his way. You have to do it before you get hit, or it's just empty posturing and a big legal mess to clear up, though.

Maybe not, since I am so stupid that I can't judge whether I will end up under his bow or not. But you're happy. You got to explain your scenario to your satisfaction. Whatever you said, it was the ONLY right thing to do, and there was no possible scenario where that collision course could have been avoided. Everything had to be done when you say it had to be done.

Got it.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:35   #200
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry



I'm feeling the love.
Khagan1227 is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:35   #201
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
LOL, that's a good one! If it were only so easy to be a genius!

Actually, the concept is accessible to probably 97% of the range of human intelligence. It is not at all rocket science. However, there are those 3% for whom no amount of education makes any difference . . .

Yeah. I got hit by one of them, so I move sooner rather than later. I don't wait until I have to be waving the colregs about trusting that the other person will interpret things as I do. I see a big ship, I get out of the way. I see an idiot, I get out of the way.

Far better than determining who is the stand-n vessel in a collision course is to avoid the collision course. You do what you want, but be sure you have a copy of the colregs to wave about as you sink. I bet it would have made all the difference for the guy whose boat is now gone.

ALL THIS POUNDING so you can be "right."
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:47   #202
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post


I'm feeling the love.

I think it's a shame because I really have nothing against Dockhead, but once he has a scenario in his head, don't offer an alternate. He WILL think you're not smart enough to understand what he was saying.

I HOPE I'm done being his trampoline.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 14:51   #203
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
That is not correct procedure. The on-watch should hail the overtaking vessel on VHF and ask their intentions. If the stand on vessel suddenly dodges 90 degrees it has a 50/50 chance of turning into her path. There is a reason it's called the stand on vessel.

As an aside to the other back and forth on this unfortunate situation I believe no one has enough information to know with certainty what caused this accident. The speculation as to cause is not really helping anyone in my view. The COLREG lessons are a nice side effect though.

You know what, Dan? I SAID THAT in one my posts -- USE THE RADIO!!
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:02   #204
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
So Rakuflames are you saying that the first incident with this bozo was your fault? Surely if you had been paying attention you could have gotten out of his way and not been hit just like the second encounter, correct?

I agree, it is your sailboat and you can change course if you want to, not always without violating the navigation rules, but you certainly can do it. Of course you are now putting yourself in the same ilk as the guy that hit you. I would prefer not to keep such company however. Please read rule 17, Action by stand on vessel.

No, that first incident was not my fault. I had no reason to believe there was no one at the helm. We were not on a collision course until his boat suddenly turned 90 into mine. I WAS the stand-on vessel, but the other vessel had no one at the helm. Which colreg is that one? He was sailing parallel to us until he suddenly turned.

If I had known there was no one at the helm, believe me, we would have moved away. We thought the other guy was racing us. In a race, it wouldn't have been so weird for him to be so close. But this was a cruise, and he had all of Tampa Bay. Instead he was paying no attention to his surroundings and hit my boat when his autopilot jumped. Probably a wave hit his rudder just wrong. I don't know, but I know that his course moved from due east to due north in a split second, and it's a good thing we didn't try to get out of his way at that point because it could only have made things worse.

ONCE AGAIN -- with the ferry, I would change course BEFORE we were close to collision. I would RADIO THEM and find out what their intention was. I would be looking around, not buried in my electronics at the worst possible time. I wold have had a REAL watch going.

The second time I had this idiot on my tail, I did the prudent thing and moved.

I see no difference between insisting that one is the "stand-on" vessel, and not avoiding a collision course, and hollering about "right of way." The point is to avoid the collision, not insist afterwards that what one did was the "right thing accroding to colregs." Thanks, but I'd rather be wrong but still have my boat.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:04   #205
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
That's funny.
In this context though, slow boats go 'chug, chug, chug'
[figuratively speaking, not comparing Yanmars to Lister one lungers at all!]

AND fast boats go ROOAARRR!,
well maybe not well described hopefully well enough.
Cheers,
Mac

Silly me. I would have said "slower boat" and "faster boat," since we're talking about a possible collision. To me a "chugger" is someone who's drunk way too much beer, way too fast.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:14   #206
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Here you go, D-Head:

I am stupid. I am out on my boat, by myself, paying no attention whatsoever to what is going on around me because I'm mesmerized by my electronics. Some hours ago there was some fog, so it is vitally important *right now* that I check my settings. And there is a ferry behind me. It is a big, fast, ferry.

I am the stand-on vessel. If I turn, the poor ferry captain will not be able to judge whether or not she can miss me. I must STAY on the collision course even though there is time to move away.

See, if I can avoid a collision by moving, I'm not really the stand-on vessel, because there is still time to avoid a collision and we can't confuse that poor, stupid, ferry captain.
What makes you think there is time to move away?

What makes you think you know which way to go?

The way you imagine the situation, unfortunately, does not correspond in any way to the geometry and physics of the reality. It is, in fact, a pure fantasy, which you adamantly impose on others. Those with even a little experience merely laugh, but I fear for the beginners, which is the only reason why I keep writing obvious things.

By the time you notice the ferry bearing down on you, you are in risk of collision and the rules apply, and you must follow them. The rules tell you to hold still. If the ferry captain has not seen you, you are dead. Your life depends on his having seen you. If he has seen you, he will maneuver around you. If you dodge, you have a 50% chance of dodging the wrong way. And dodging the right way doesn't bring any benefit. Therefore, don't do it, and don't mislead others by advising them to do so.
__________________
Dockhead is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:34   #207
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,832
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

the prudent skipper would be talking on the radio arranging a pass....but that's just me...
__________________
psneeld is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:37   #208
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
the prudent skipper would be talking on the radio arranging a pass....but that's just me...
Absolutely.

__________________
Dockhead is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 15:57   #209
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Seattle, but with ~250 nights in hotels elsewhere
Boat: Catalina 36
Posts: 93
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Ugh. COLREGS is pretty clear on this one. Can't believe nobody has cited this, because (back in my days as a dinghy sailor on Long Island Sound) it was the first COLREG we learned. Also came up in a very interesting admiralty lecture back in law school.

Quote:
A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
That's Rule 9 (b)

"Impede the passage" language means that the large vessel in the narrow fairway is stand-on. I can give you a bunch of collision cases which back that up, but I'm too lazy to find them right now.
__________________
FlyMeAway is offline  
Old 20-09-2013, 16:03   #210
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London, Ontario
Boat: MacGregor 25', Columbia 26 Classic
Posts: 347
Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

I was just looking at Dockhead's sailing area using Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions.

No wonder you know a thing or two about the COLREGs.

There are hundreds of ships in there at this minute moving between 10 and 25 knots. There's even what looks like a sailboat race coming out of the Solent heading towards France (looks like 15 or more) and these are only the boats with AIS.

It looks like the LA freeway at rush hour.
__________________

__________________
frank_f is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
Ferry, sail, sailboat, washing, Washington

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.