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Old 24-08-2015, 21:32   #1
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What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

Hello to you all, I'm new to this wonderful forum site and sailing in general.

I am a retired Kiwi and have a few good years left in me yet and have booked to do a sailing course it Thailand in October in preparation of for-filling my ambitions.

The boat that I am interested to buy a Nauticat 33 which I believe is suitable for me and my age (65) to sail around the Pacific Islands - but I would like to modify it a wee bit by removing the Mizzen sail so I can install a fiber glass roof structure for weather protection while cruising - a good option from being inside the wheel house all the time and sitting under at night time protected from the night due.

My question is: What is the Mizzen Sails function and what affect will it have if removed on the sailing performance of a Nauticat 33 with the engine shut down.

Thank you who answer in advance.

Robert.
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Old 24-08-2015, 22:41   #2
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What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

I don't own one so it is hard to say for sure.

A few thoughts:
1) it is a motor sailor so how interested are you in sailing vs. motoring? If sailing is important it is a pretty big piece of canvas as a percentage of not much canvas to begin with that you would be giving up. This may put you back into motor mode more often than you care for.
2) could you do it with canvas to avoid dropping the mizzen?
3) if aesthetics are at all important to you, and no offense intended, whatever limited visual appeal the boat has to begin with, starts to breakdown when you mess with the basic lines and symmetry.
4) I own a yawl, which has a much smaller mizzen, I would say we day sail it almost 50% of the time with mizzen and Genoa only. Mizzen is easy to put up, genny rolls out, a nice easy balanced sail plan. Even when passage making we generally go first reef, then put the main away altogether as the wind builds. Why bother thinking about more reefs? We are balanced and sailing along nicely.
5) the secret weapon of two masted boats...the little staysail that flys off the the mizzen mast, but if the answer to 1) is motoring, then you probably don't know what I am talking about.




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Old 24-08-2015, 23:09   #3
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

Try asking this on Yahoo Nauticat owners forum.
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Old 25-08-2015, 00:01   #4
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

Silver Fern,

The function of the mizzen sail is to add sail area. With ketch rigs, there are times when the mains'l is too large when combined with the working jib, so it is taken down, and the mizzen sail raised. This is called "jib" and "jigger". Ketches run that way in heavyish weather. Good off the wind, not great for pointing up into the wind. If you remove the mizzen mast whatever that square meterage of sail is, you will lose all the benefits. The boat, yes, is a motorsailer, but if you EVER want to sail it, you owe it the best sails you can buy for it. She needs a fair wee breeze to sail in.

If you don't really care about sailing, then maybe a straightforward motor yacht might suit better. ....But if that shoe don't fit, don't wear it. ;-)

Ann
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Old 25-08-2015, 08:31   #5
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

I agree with all said. I have a Cal 46 ketch and often sail Jib & Jigger or all three sails. But I would emphasize the 24 hour benefits of having a mizzen. That is as a stabilizing sail... a flopper-stopper if you will while motoring into the wind... why does it seem the wind always blows from the direction we need to go?? Also, I anchor our much much more than just hop between marinas. We almost always leave the mizzen up to stabilize the boat at night because not all anchorages are those totally protected clam anchorages shown in the sailing magazines. It also provides a bigger visible profile to help distracted fisherman/ other cruisers from running into you at night... even though your anchor light SHOULD be enough.


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Old 25-08-2015, 09:01   #6
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

Hi Silver fern, W3gac has a valued point. Almost always I see ketchs/Yawls with there mizzens flying at anchor for stabilization. I've been envious at times. Perhaps you might consider a boom gallows on the stern rail with a removable canvas. We did that and it worked great. Plus the gallow came in handy for many other things. Just a thought. I like the Nauticat too and the people I've come across with them love them and cruise everywhere.
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Old 25-08-2015, 09:17   #7
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

We love having a mizzen mast on our boat even if we don't fly the mizzen sail all that much. However, for our boat, heaving to is very simple: We hoist the mizzen, sheet it in tight, lash the helm hard over and we're done.

We have found the mizzen to be useful primarily when reaching - going to windward it has almost no effect and sometimes when running it pushes the stern around too much.

Fair winds and calm seas.
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Old 25-08-2015, 09:46   #8
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

i sailed a 1986 Nauticat 33 for four years from almost new. it was delivered without a mizzen mast and the main mast was not modified. the boat was fantastic for our purposes (with three little kids), super safe, extremely comfortable. When we were ready for a larger boat I sold my Nauticat almost instantly because the brand is so highly regarded, and that owner loved the boat for 10 years before selling it for almost the same as he paid.

Nauticat is a motorsailer and is very economical (I had a 98hp Ford in mine) to use. we sailed whenever the wind was over 15kts. of course she did not sail at less than 60 degrees or over 150 degrees but that's the case for a lot of boats. we motorsailer with the main up quite often and it was a wonderful way to travel at 10kts for long distances with little expense. mainsail added a knot and steadied the boat.

I also sailed that boat in full gales off the coast of California and Mexico, with reefed main and engine, standing in the wheelhouse sipping a cocktail while green water washed over the boat. rather heavy and very secure - it is made for the North Sea! the reality I've found over the decades is that you do a lot more motorsailing than anyone admits. this boat can stow a lot of stuff and not sit low on its lines, stout ports and hatches, and the Nauticat is beautiful, gorgeous below, excellent aft cabin with private head, built like military-spec, and easy to handle with all the power and the two steering stations (easy to see when you drive from the elevated aft deck).

it is slow as a sailor, and it is has a lot of windage so it can be a handful to dock in tight windy marinas. but I eventually learned how to muscle it around given the fantastic visibility and engine power.

I think a lot of the tiny mizzen masts out in the world do more to add windage and weight aloft than they add sailing horsepower. plus you have to take care of that spar, sail and running/standing rigging (complexity and $$).

if you want a racer or light air boat, don't get the Nauticat. If you like easy cruising, sitting in the pilot house at the settee with morning coffee, wide side decks with actual handrails on the life lines, etc... get the Nauticat.
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Old 25-08-2015, 09:59   #9
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

As the former owner and 20 year sailor of a ketch, removing the mizzen mast is
Just plain stupid! Go buy a motor boat.
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Old 25-08-2015, 10:09   #10
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33



G'day Silver Fern,
Losing the mizzen would shift the CE forward and result in lee helm, which is a Bad Thing™; instead of the boat wanting to head up into the wind she'll tend to run off and gybe.

Weather & Lee helm; Learn how to balance your boat in different wind conditions.
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Old 25-08-2015, 10:18   #11
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

my Nauticat 33 "sloop" headed up if left alone, and never ran off. weather helm was not a problem because the keel is a modified FULL keel. very stable. I rarely ever needed the autopilot (a primitive affair in 1986 in the days before LORAN was cheaply available, I had an RF direction finder) because I could trim the genoa and/or main to steer the boat for days through whatever seas came.

again, the Nauticat 33 is not a sail racer so a lot of the wisdom of sailing doesn't really apply.
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Old 25-08-2015, 10:20   #12
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

It depends on the boat balance "as it is" I suppose. Personally , I don't mind a boat that is very neutral as opposed to weather helm. Try sailing it without the mizzen up in a stiff wind before modifications and see how the helm is. Looking at the drawing above, you might reposition the headstay to the bow of the boat as opposed to the bowsprit to counteract removing the mizzen. It could be just fine. I will say I see more ketches sailing without the mizzen up than with it up.
Boat balance changes every time you change a sail or reef etc anyway, so it's not a black and white thing anyway, and designers use different amounts of "lead" in their designs too.
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Old 25-08-2015, 10:29   #13
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

When I Googled Nauticat I found it can be made as a sloop or a ketch. This almost certainly means that either the mast is further aft or the boom is longer on the sloop rig. This is to keep the boat balanced as another poster mentioned about lee helm. Only if the boat is so much closer to a motorboat than a sailboat that you would only sail it downwind is a reason you could get away without keeping the boat balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symphony View Post
i sailed a 1986 Nauticat 33 for four years from almost new. it was delivered without a mizzen mast and the main mast was not modified. the boat was fantastic for our purposes (with three little kids), super safe, extremely comfortable. When we were ready for a larger boat I sold my Nauticat almost instantly because the brand is so highly regarded, and that owner loved the boat for 10 years before selling it for almost the same as he paid.

Nauticat is a motorsailer and is very economical (I had a 98hp Ford in mine) to use. we sailed whenever the wind was over 15kts. of course she did not sail at less than 60 degrees or over 150 degrees but that's the case for a lot of boats. we motorsailer with the main up quite often and it was a wonderful way to travel at 10kts for long distances with little expense. mainsail added a knot and steadied the boat.

I also sailed that boat in full gales off the coast of California and Mexico, with reefed main and engine, standing in the wheelhouse sipping a cocktail while green water washed over the boat. rather heavy and very secure - it is made for the North Sea! the reality I've found over the decades is that you do a lot more motorsailing than anyone admits. this boat can stow a lot of stuff and not sit low on its lines, stout ports and hatches, and the Nauticat is beautiful, gorgeous below, excellent aft cabin with private head, built like military-spec, and easy to handle with all the power and the two steering stations (easy to see when you drive from the elevated aft deck).

it is slow as a sailor, and it is has a lot of windage so it can be a handful to dock in tight windy marinas. but I eventually learned how to muscle it around given the fantastic visibility and engine power.

I think a lot of the tiny mizzen masts out in the world do more to add windage and weight aloft than they add sailing horsepower. plus you have to take care of that spar, sail and running/standing rigging (complexity and $$).

if you want a racer or light air boat, don't get the Nauticat. If you like easy cruising, sitting in the pilot house at the settee with morning coffee, wide side decks with actual handrails on the life lines, etc... get the Nauticat.
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Old 25-08-2015, 10:42   #14
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

You will sail slower I think.

b.
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Old 25-08-2015, 12:46   #15
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Re: What affect if the Mizzen sail is removed from a Nauticat 33

Thank you for your valuable reply.....reading other replys it stays

Regards,

Reobert
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