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Old 27-03-2008, 11:47   #61
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Thanks for that article Sneuman, it filled in a lot of blanks for me.

For the Louis Vuitton Group to pull out would have been very painful for the Chairman as I personally know how committed he was and how much he loved being “THE Sponsor”, even when it was held on a small Island in Antipodean away from major market exposure.

What you are seeing is a spoiled little rich kid (Erneste) trying to have it all his own way by saying “its my ball” and the rest of the boys are going to quickly kick that one into the river.

Here is hoping LVG will come back. They are a classy group!
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Old 27-03-2008, 12:05   #62
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Excellent summation of how we got to where we are, sneuman. Thanks for posting that. (Aside: It's a bitch to read black type on a blue background.)

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Old 28-03-2008, 00:50   #63
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A couple of things in this thread disturb me.

1, What's this talk coming out of some US posters about 'rigging' the AC game again. You spent years doing that until some dodgy Sth Pacific types beat you at your own game.

2, AC a 'sport', hello it's never been a sport. It's always been a 'my penis is bigger than yours' affair for the boys with way too much money and egos to match.

3, Ernie B bluffed and lost. Go BWMO and Lazza A. Whether you like it or not EB did need someone to pull his head in for him, he's an idiot on many levels.

4, The AC boats are technologically very advanced in many ways (yet still boring to watch, sad really) and some of this technology is filtering down into all sorts of places i.e us poor peoples boats, F1 cars and even some has been pick-up by NASA.

5, NZers make pile of money from the AC and it keeps nearly 1/2 our little country employed OK not half but a lot either sailing, building and thinking of cunning plans. Alinghis lawyers and TNZ and even a couple with BMW I believe. That means we have less lawyers here now so another bonus

6, Where is the US after over 120 years of being in the game they just seem to have disappeared from the AC. Sure BMWO is US based but one 2 (I think) US passports aboard and Lazza. 1/2 the crew is from NZ and 1/4 from Aussie. Mind you that's less NZers the Alingi has. Rename the Cup I say

For well over 100 years the AC has been plagued by lawyers and dodgy goings on. The actual yachting has been second fiddle for years, which is good as it's like watching paint dry often. It's fun to watch, long may it continue.

Yes some of this post is tongue in cheek but only 'some'
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Old 28-03-2008, 01:16   #64
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Yes some of this post is tongue in cheek but only 'some'
and he's not saying which ones.
If AC was made to fit a set of "rules" to make the game even and fair, then it would simply become just another Sailboat race. What makes AC what it is, is the fact that it is the elite. The ones that have the most money usually win and we Kiwi's love it when an underfunded underdog like us come take it away. Yep we lost it and it was our own silly fault for defending it thinking we had it all sussed. A few hard lesson were learned and still being learned.
But what Ernesto is doing now is a shame IMO. It is ruining it for all. Simply put, he wants to hold the "ole mug" forever. But what he doesn't seem to understand is that if no country could ever bother to challenge again, he will end up with a very expensive and ugly silver mug on display that means nothing other than some history.
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Old 28-03-2008, 01:46   #65
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and he's not saying which ones.
Keep them guessing baby....

And your post is spot on.
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Old 29-03-2008, 15:31   #66
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Team Alinghi's 60' Tri Flip in 20 kts???!!!!

Team Alinghi had a small "boo-boo". I posted a thread on it, but Tao Jones suggested readers of this thread would be interested.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post147920
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Old 29-03-2008, 18:27   #67
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Why do you think it will be boring? I think a tacking battle with boats doing 20-30 kts should produce some very exciting scenes personally. (And great crashes!)

I
Cat's tack ever so slow. The windward leg will be a one tack event, start, sail out to the starboard layline and tack for the mark. The America's cup action has always been the start with the dial up and fight for the favored end of the line. Due to the cats slow tacking ability this would come to a screeching halt.
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Old 29-03-2008, 20:28   #68
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"if no country could ever bother to challenge again, "
Not to worry, as I understand it the deed is governed by the law and courts in the Empire State and if anyone decides they're not going to hold races--I'd expect a fast suit and a ruling that the purpose of the deed is to have regular races, and anyone not following along with that is violating the deed. Followed by a court order to either hold races, or return the cup to someone who will.

Exploiting the rules, or trying to exploit them, has always been a part of any REAL racing. Cars, planes, boats, whatever. If I can DSQ a competitor with a technical violation, that may not be as satisfying as beating them on the water--but it still counts as beating them. Them's the rules!
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Old 29-03-2008, 22:23   #69
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I'd expect a fast suit and a ruling that the purpose of the deed is to have regular races,
And that is basicly what Grant Dalton/Team NZ is or has just done. They are trying to sue for having the Race schedule held up. (has that court thing happend yet?)
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Old 30-03-2008, 01:32   #70
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2 things -
1, it's never been country V's country as such. It's Yacht Club V's Yacht Club. There were rules about X amount of boat to be built in the country of the yacht club, most are still there. There was also a rule (modified from the original Deed by the Aussies I think) to say the 'crews' had to be 'residents' or similar for XX time leading up to the event. This 'crew' rule was canned by EB after he brought the Cup the 1st time as the crew he brought crew were not quite Swiss and couldn't yodel up to the required standard.
2, TNZ is suing due to the delay. EB's ego was that large he was stupid enough to sign a contract saying if the AC didn't go ahead as he said it would he'd pay TNZ expenses until it did. Actually EB's biggest mistake he was have dumbarse lawyers probably. The TNZ 'legal' must be laughing their knickers off with that one.
3, Cats while being great in a straight line will not be match racing as we know it, as mentioned above they are just too slow in the tacks so I'd suggest we'll see a minimum number of tacks per race with some very very fast bits in between.

Ok 3 things

Quote:
If I can DSQ a competitor with a technical violation, that may not be as satisfying as beating them on the water--but it still counts as beating them. Them's the rules!
If you can DSQ them with any violation it means they were cheating. Cheating is not allowed in the rules. So if you get caught cheating you lose either on or off the water and deservedly so. Mind you HSailor your right, a good arse kicking on the water is a lot more satisfying generally. That's from one, me, who does push rules as far as he can without breaking them.

Had a protest a few years back about an 'outboard fitted as you would for actual use', we did but the outboard didn't go. In the protest room everyone said 'You're out baby' until I pointed out no where in the rues or sailing instructions did it say it actually had to go. The protest committee ruled in my favour as even though the 'intent' was the outboard was to be working the rules didn't actually say that.

Luckily they didn't look to close at the outboard as the top was only painted polystyrene but then if it didn't have to go that was fine. We also had a grey painted plywood danforth anchor, the rules never said it had to be steel or any particular weight.

FYI - Don't try that at home, they've changed the rules to stop those 2 things now. Look in the corner of many rules and the 'intent' is not actually what is written.

Maybe I should be a AC lawyer
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Old 14-05-2008, 15:04   #71
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"if no country could ever bother to challenge again, "
Not to worry, as I understand it the deed is governed by the law and courts in the Empire State and if anyone decides they're not going to hold races--I'd expect a fast suit and a ruling that the purpose of the deed is to have regular races, and anyone not following along with that is violating the deed. Followed by a court order to either hold races, or return the cup to someone who will.

Exploiting the rules, or trying to exploit them, has always been a part of any REAL racing. Cars, planes, boats, whatever. If I can DSQ a competitor with a technical violation, that may not be as satisfying as beating them on the water--but it still counts as beating them. Them's the rules!
From today's 'Lectronic Latitude, comes word that the presiding judge in New York has issued his ruling, and none of the litigants is likely to be happy.

* * * * *

"Cahn Releases Order

"May 14, 2008 New York

"New York Supreme Court Justice Herman Cahn released his order regarding the BMW Oracle Racing's Deed of Gift Challenge for America's Cup 33. Judging by the typically verbose team's terse press release, it's not what they were looking for. Cahn ordered the date of the match to be 10 months from the serving of his order, with Alinghi required to name the venue six months beforehand. This would mean a Cup match likely in March of 2009, not the October 2008 claimed by BMW Oracle Racing to be both anticipated and desired by the team.

"But . . . there's a catch! . . ."

* * * * *

For the rest of the story, go to:

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine

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Old 14-05-2008, 15:11   #72
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Ya know, all the politics, court decisions, fighting back and forth etc is more interesting than the racing itself, which is actually quite dull on the boats they use.
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Old 14-05-2008, 15:42   #73
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Ya know, all the politics, court decisions, fighting back and forth etc is more interesting than the racing itself, which is actually quite dull on the boats they use.
I have concluded that the politics and legal stuff is what makes the America's Cup these days. Trying to follow two rich guys' legal maneuvers over a cheap ugly silver cup is kind of entertaining.

But, I am looking forward to a big multihull match as well.
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Old 14-05-2008, 19:14   #74
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I quite miss the America's cup of the '70's in Newport. The Aussie crew would rent a "cottage" mansion and fill it with enough Foster's to last the summer. They'd then stroll the streets wearing shirts that read on the front "Mothers of America lock up your daughters". On the back the shirt read "Daughters of America lock up your mothers".

Everyone seemed to enjoy themselves.

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Old 15-05-2008, 23:47   #75
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Hey, its all the Aussies fault! Had it not been for them the Americas Cup would still be under the auspices of a bunch of snooty, east coast, blue blazer wearing stuffed shirts sailing 12 meters as a poor excuse for a real racing boat. Darn you Aussies...you ruined all the fun!
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