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Old 23-03-2015, 06:24   #91
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Re: What a dump marina

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Limiting anchoring is just another NIMBY short sighted solution. After each community experiences some level of extensive anchoring in it waters what's next - outlawing all anchoring and forcing liveaboards/crusiers to pay for mooring/dock rentals? The anchoring was going on in those areas long before those houses were built. Therefore the tail should not be allowed to wag the dog. And clearing away derelicts and abandoned boats will go a long way toward making both sides at least respect each other from a distance.
As I mentioned, this is a community level solution. For the community, chasing the permanently moored wrecks out solves the problem. The community is not responsible for solving the worlds problems. Reality as more communities adopt standards the option of living semi-permanently on a floating wreck until it washes up into the mangroves and sinks will go away (or at least be drastically reduced).

Also I have yet to hear a serious proposal to outlaw all anchoring. Most communities welcome cruisers. This is where the cruising community should be supportive of the communities and help them craft logical regulations that target the problem. In that situation a reasonable time limit for anchoring solves a lot of issues. Cruisers by definition move on a regular basis. If you want to stay someplace for more than say a week, get a mooring or a slip. If you are stationary for months on end, you aren't a cruiser and have no right to a patch of seabottom in perpetuity.

Also, I'm pretty sure if you go back to before these communities were formed, there was no permanent anchoring (or at least very rarely done), this problem developed after thier was a community with available services to draw them in. If you watch where these boats are, they aren't in remote wilderness areas, they want to be close to communities for access to the services they provide.

There was a thread last year about a guy upset that the locals didn't like his floating wreck. When it was suggested there is an even better anchorage 2 miles away, he got all indignat that it would make getting into town difficult, so not buying the idea that the wrecks were always there and the town built up around them.
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Old 23-03-2015, 06:41   #92
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Re: What a dump marina

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All valid points. But again there is an easy solution. Say instead of pushing the problem down the road (where next?) FL enacts a boat disposal fee of $5 (or whatever needed to cover the estimated annual costs) paid by any boat initial registration and annual renewal. Not gonna break anyone's budget but may be enough to cover a permanent state staffed team of boat removal specialists roving around the state after such derelicts and enforcing existing laws upon derelict looking liveaboards. And some of that fee could cover legal costs associated with chasing derelicts' owners. That way no rights of regular cruisers/liveaboards are infringed upon.

And btw I'm not so sure that most of them are judgment free. I'd bet that most now feel protected by the economics of chasing them. If the economics change many would pay up. And these recouped costs could go back into the fund for chasing more derelict boats. A win-win loop. And at some point two things will happen - 1. the costs of disposal will come down as it will be done by salaried state empolyees and not by private contractors bent on milking whoever is on the hook to pay them and 2) most derelicts' owners will realize that the disposal costs they now dread so much are affordable enough to deal with them appropriately. Just as car disposal rates are manageable and don't force car owners to abandon junk cars left and right.

And btw most junked boats still have tremendous value in parts. A typical 30footer can probably fetch between $3,000 and $5,000 in parts over time. Surely enough to cover a typical tow and haul situation. Except that under the current system the cost of tow and haul is born by the state and/or local LE but the profit of parting the derelict out is made by the private junkyard. Of course under such system the state/LE have little incentive to be very agressive with the derelicts. And the private junkyard has no incentive to tow and haul relying only on the parting out income as they will at best only break even in that situation.
A $5 fee is an option. The problem is legitimate boaters who's boats are unlikely to wind up in this situation are likely to resent it and since they are drastically more likely to vote, it's a tough sell. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but it's politically difficult to pass.

While I"m sure there are some folks they could go after, I'm still betting the vast majority are judgement proof. Also, I've worked in both the public and private sector. I wouldn't count on any cost savings from having a designated state crew. Car disposal is almost completely a private affair but in that case, it's economically feasiable for the salvager and there are very few complications.

I suspect you are wildly overvaluing the salvage value of boats and the cost of getting them off the bottom and into a yard. You can buy a 30-40yr old boat rotting away in the back of the yard for a few hundred bucks and I'm sure most yards will be happy to see them gone. If they really had any significant salvage value, private companies would be out salvaging them and parting them out.

There isn't a simple solution for Florida. They already get a lot of push back being heavy handed with poo patrols and collecting registration fees (called something else) if you stay too long. As a tourist oriented state, they have to walk the line between keeping it nice to attract vistors and collecting enough funding to address the problems.
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:04   #93
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Re: What a dump marina

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Derelicts issue aside is it a cultural divide working here? I just can't imagine a New England waterfront home owner complaining too much about a few sailboats in front of his house. That's what sells these houses to begin with. In SE MA in the Elizabeth Islands, still privately owned by the Forbes family, anchoring in front of their mansions is actually encouraged to keep the owners' water views authentically New England-like.
If the boats in question were anything close to the same thing, your imagining would be right on the money. But in certain areas of south Florida, calling the things that are floating, sometimes with people living aboard and sometimes not, "boats," is quite a stretch. At one time (usually long, long ago), many of them were boats that you could sail or motor someplace on, but the ones that are being discussed here, usually haven't been moved in years and never will under their own power again. They are barely floating (sometimes sitting on bottom) collections of junk. As boaters, I don't think we have anything to gain by sticking up for their "right" to drop an anchor anywhere they please with no intention of ever pulling it up again. If floating junk collections like these were removed, it might be easier for land based residents in Florida to see that legitimate boaters (who actually sail somewhere once in awhile) anchoring in front of their property aren't a potential problem. I'm no elitist and certainly think there's room for all kinds of boats in our community, but at some point, the floating things we are discussing cease to become boats and are instead junk, and should be properly disposed of just like any other kind of junk should. If we rally to support these barely floating eyesores, can we really blame local residents if they group us in with them when they are considering local anchoring restrictions or other restrictive ordinances that will negatively impact us all? I think your observation that even the very wealthy enjoy seeing almost any boat that anyone on this forum would own anchored in front of their oceanfront property is true, but in Florida that is becoming less true because of homeowners legitimate fear of the nice anchorage in front of his house turning into a collection of derelicts that never leave.
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:10   #94
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Re: What a dump marina

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If the boats in question were anything close to the same thing, your imagining would be right on the money. But in certain areas of south Florida, calling the things that are floating, sometimes with people living aboard and sometimes not, "boats," is quite a stretch. At one time (usually long, long ago), many of them were boats that you could sail or motor someplace on, but the ones that are being discussed here, usually haven't been moved in years and never will under their own power again. They are barely floating (sometimes sitting on bottom) collections of junk. As boaters, I don't think we have anything to gain by sticking up for their "right" to drop an anchor anywhere they please with no intention of ever pulling it up again. If floating junk collections like these were removed, it might be easier for land based residents in Florida to see that legitimate boaters (who actually sail somewhere once in awhile) anchoring in front of their property aren't a potential problem. I'm no elitist and certainly think there's room for all kinds of boats in our community, but at some point, the floating things we are discussing cease to become boats and are instead junk, and should be properly disposed of just like any other kind of junk should. If we rally to support these barely floating eyesores, can we really blame local residents if they group us in with them when they are considering local anchoring restrictions or other restrictive ordinances that will negatively impact us all? I think your observation that even the very wealthy enjoy seeing almost any boat that anyone on this forum would own anchored in front of their oceanfront property is true, but in Florida that is becoming less true because of homeowners legitimate fear of the nice anchorage in front of his house turning into a collection of derelicts that never leave.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:17   #95
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Re: What a dump marina

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There's a big difference between working for the government and sitting on your ass and receiving welfare and food stamps.
It's a matter of perspective. The goverment pays for what it considers essential. It pays LE and military for one set of reasons, bureaucrats and scientists for others and the welfare recipients still for other reasons, chief among them being that the gov't and society has found in its experience and wisdom that it is cheaper to maintain some people on welfare than in prisons or to clean up whole cities and states after the frequent riots, etc.

But it still does not change the fact that the number of people in US dependent on a gov't check (whether it's a paycheck or a welfare check it is still a gov't check) is way above 49%, and if you include indirect beneficiaries such as vendors, subcontractors, etc. probably closer to the 90% I mentioned. And the fact that you parcel this out without seeing a bigger picture says a lot as to why the we're in the mess we're in - i.e. blind reliance on gov't for our livelihood is what's propelling this country off it's historical track of gov't by the people and into the track of society by the gov't. And nothing is more indicative of this trend is what's happening with the anchorages in FL and attempts to foist the gov't solution on simple free market issue i.e. if the waterfront owners don't like th eboats which have a right to be where they are to be there they are certainly free to move to where the boats aren't. But nooooo, we don't solve such questions in a free market way anymore, we have the gov't to help these 1% out and to beat upon the rest of us shmucks.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:32   #96
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Re: What a dump marina

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If the boats in question were anything close to the same thing, your imagining would be right on the money. But in certain areas of south Florida, calling the things that are floating, sometimes with people living aboard and sometimes not, "boats," is quite a stretch. At one time (usually long, long ago), many of them were boats that you could sail or motor someplace on, but the ones that are being discussed here, usually haven't been moved in years and never will under their own power again. They are barely floating (sometimes sitting on bottom) collections of junk. As boaters, I don't think we have anything to gain by sticking up for their "right" to drop an anchor anywhere they please with no intention of ever pulling it up again. If floating junk collections like these were removed, it might be easier for land based residents in Florida to see that legitimate boaters (who actually sail somewhere once in awhile) anchoring in front of their property aren't a potential problem. I'm no elitist and certainly think there's room for all kinds of boats in our community, but at some point, the floating things we are discussing cease to become boats and are instead junk, and should be properly disposed of just like any other kind of junk should. If we rally to support these barely floating eyesores, can we really blame local residents if they group us in with them when they are considering local anchoring restrictions or other restrictive ordinances that will negatively impact us all? I think your observation that even the very wealthy enjoy seeing almost any boat that anyone on this forum would own anchored in front of their oceanfront property is true, but in Florida that is becoming less true because of homeowners legitimate fear of the nice anchorage in front of his house turning into a collection of derelicts that never leave.
I agree that many of these derelicts do not qualify to be called "boats" but here is a real life example of what I'm talking about.

Several years ago when I was visiting my liveaboard friends in KW we noticed driving by the lagoon (its name now escapes me) a semi-submerged boat about 35ft LOA. My friend who is a marine pro and partially suplements his income buying up boats in need of TLC and reselling them for a modest profit (sometimes for his cost or less but alas, that the risk in any business) got his interest peaked as the semi-submerged boat's lines were classic and he thought this was worth exploring further. Next time I visited them the boat was still there and I asked him what was up with it. Turned out he made inquiries with the harbormaster and some other gov't officials and in unison they were adamant against such private effort citing a plethora of local, state and Federal laws and regs, even though by that time the boat was there over a year, may be much longer (at least year since we noticed her). Now you tell me with an attitude such as this do you really believe the gov't will some how change it's approach if the anchoring law becomes effective?

As far as these "boats" not bringing in enough $ at parting out to cover the cost of the tow and haul well other resources such as private and semi-public wildlife preservation folks and some such can be tapped to cover the costs. Or emptied of hazmat fluids these junks would make excellent reefs. There are number of avenues which can and should be explored before we start piling up another set of laws, rules and regs which no one has any intention of enforceing, just as they don't enforce the existing law. Otherwise would would not be where we are today on this issue.

This reminds me of the way we went about trying to indroduce universal heathcare coverage. Instead of picking and choosing among the systems already tried and working well in other countries we decided to invent one from the scratch. And look where it got us.

As to derelict boats let's explore how other countries similarly situated are dealing with this issue and may be we can learn a thing or two and apply these to our needs. And if it turns out that due to some Constitutional issue we can't copy their methods then we must live with it as a small price to pay to obey the mandates of our own Constitution.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:40   #97
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Re: What a dump marina

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It's a matter of perspective. The goverment pays for what it considers essential. It pays LE and military for one set of reasons, bureaucrats and scientists for others and the welfare recipients still for other reasons, chief among them being that the gov't and society has found in its experience and wisdom that it is cheaper to maintain some people on welfare than in prisons or to clean up whole cities and states after the frequent riots, etc.

But it still does not change the fact that the number of people in US dependent on a gov't check (whether it's a paycheck or a welfare check it is still a gov't check) is way above 49%, and if you include indirect beneficiaries such as vendors, subcontractors, etc. probably closer to the 90% I mentioned. ........................
So you are lumping the people who provide needed services to society by working for the government with welfare mothers? I worked hard in a skilled position for the government for 32 years and I don't think it's fair or even the least bit intelligent to equate people who are paid for their skills and labor with those who make babies for a government handout.

Perhaps you should sit back and think about this for a few minutes before you make your next post on the subject.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:50   #98
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Re: What a dump marina

One more personal thought of anecdotal nature. I have an acquaintance in FL who is an off and on boat owner. So each time he's in his boat looking mode we discuss the various boats available in FL and here in New England. And each time he's appoplectic at the difference in prices at the lower end of the spectrum. I have found plenty of boats up to 30ft for him in sailable condition (after some minor TLC) for under $1,000 and he's adamant that same boats in FL would fetch at least $3,000 in the same condition. He used come up here to look at these boats I found so he can compare. The only factor preventing him from buying up here is the cost of transporting one of them to FL as the sail South, against the Gulfstream is of course out of the question and he does not have the time or the desire to do ICW, though they would make a decent near coastal sailor and liveaboard.

So we figured out why the TLC near derelict boats in FL are fetching more. It's because whoever's buying them uses them for liveaboards and starts saving $ on regular rent day one. So that's why they are willing to pay $3-5K for a boat that is only a junkyard candidate in Northeast. Thus as someone mentioned earlier may be the solution is for marine LE to be stricter on what constitutes a "seaworthy" vessel which will go a long way toward celaning up the boating scene overall and force the derelicts' owners either to clean/fix them up or to give them up.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:59   #99
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Re: What a dump marina

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So you are lumping the people who provide needed services to society by working for the government with welfare mothers? I worked hard in a skilled position for the government for 32 years and I don't think it's fair or even the least bit intelligent to equate people who are paid for their skills and labor with those who make babies for a government handout.

Perhaps you should sit back and think about this for a few minutes before you make your next post on the subject.
You're choosing just one side of the equation out of many. That's my point. And perhaps so far it is you who only have thought one dimentionally of this issue. In the big picture and in the long run it does not really matter whether or not you did something productive for the gov't or sat on your as* and gotten a check. What matters is that huge segments of society, both productive and non-productive are relying on the gov't to provide for their daily bread. That's the real issue IMO, the one you are unwilling or unable to confront and think through it's consequences for our future as a society. In your version with which you are apparently OK our whole society will be either working for the go'vt or leeching off the gov't. I'm saying that this is not right and should be at least began to be though of as not right. As they say the first step to any recovery is to to realize that there is a problem. In my perfect world there would be a law saying that for each person gotten off of welfare there should be a corresponding gov't worker also off of their gov't pay.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:11   #100
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Re: What a dump marina

The Problem with Government problem solving is that if the problem the agency set out to solve was ACTUALLY solved, they would have no Job. Thus they work, spend, have conferences, write papers, host seminars, but what ever you do....don't solve the actual problem or you will be out of a Job.

There is no creative destruction allowed in the world of Government.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:14   #101
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Re: What a dump marina

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So you are lumping the people who provide needed services to society by working for the government with welfare mothers? I worked hard in a skilled position for the government for 32 years and I don't think it's fair or even the least bit intelligent to equate people who are paid for their skills and labor with those who make babies for a government handout.

Perhaps you should sit back and think about this for a few minutes before you make your next post on the subject.

OK, take me for instance, I'm Retired Military, and while I'd like to think I earned that monthly check, fact is the taxpayer is having to foot the bill for me, just as he or she is for every other person getting a check.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:20   #102
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Re: What a dump marina

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You're choosing just one side of the equation out of many. That's my point. And perhaps so far it is you who only have thought one dimentionally of this issue. In the big picture and in the long run it does not really matter whether or not you did something productive for the gov't or sat on your as* and gotten a check. What matters is that huge segments of society, both productive and non-productive are relying on the gov't to provide for their daily bread. That's the real issue IMO, the one you are unwilling or unable to confront and think through it's consequences for our future as a society. In your version with which you are apparently OK our whole society will be either working for the go'vt or leeching off the gov't. I'm saying that this is not right and should be at least began to be though of as not right. As they say the first step to any recovery is to to realize that there is a problem. In my perfect world there would be a law saying that for each person gotten off of welfare there should be a corresponding gov't worker also off of their gov't pay.
You obviously didn't think long enough.

A government has obligations to it's citizens. Protect them from enemies, both international and local, provide roads, bridges, etc. and educate the children, to name a few. That's what government's do.

What would your solution be? Each of us buy our own aircraft and bombs to defend ourselves from other countries? Each of us build our own roads and bridges? Arm ourselves to protect against criminals? Do away with the educational system and let our children grow up without any marketable skills?

Take a little more time to think about this next time.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:24   #103
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Re: What a dump marina

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OK, take me for instance, I'm Retired Military, and while I'd like to think I earned that monthly check, fact is the taxpayer is having to foot the bill for me, just as he or she is for every other person getting a check.
You provided a needed service for the citizens of your country. Your compensation was partly while you were on active duty with the understanding that the rest was for your retirement. Much like mine.

Put in a more understandable way, instead of being paid $30 per hour, you were paid $25 per hour with the extra $5 invested to fund your retirement.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:38   #104
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Re: What a dump marina

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You obviously didn't think long enough.

A government has obligations to it's citizens. Protect them from enemies, both international and local, provide roads, bridges, etc. and educate the children, to name a few. That's what government's do.

What would your solution be? Each of us buy our own aircraft and bombs to defend ourselves from other countries? Each of us build our own roads and bridges? Arm ourselves to protect against criminals? Do away with the educational system and let our children grow up without any marketable skills?

Take a little more time to think about this next time.
Except for the military part and limited LE (and unfortunately we all know how bloated it is last 40 or so years) almost every other gov't "essential" service historically is something which was not even contemplated as a gov't service never mind being essential. So you are stating the end result of this "rely on the gov't" attitude. Best example would be the TSA. In the free market the consumers should have an absolute right to pick and choose a safe airline and if they feel that one is not safe but are willing to take a chance because that the only one they can afford to fly with it is their right to do so. On the other hand if as a result of the lax boarding policies some major harm is done do the persons they or their heirs should have just as much right to sue the bejesus out of such company and it's stockholders, etc. That is always a much better functioning system than what we have now, which provides neither for healthy competition nor for healthy dose of personal responsibility on the part of both the carriers and the flying public. Because we have been condtiooned to push the problem onto the gov't's lap.

And yes I also think that the roads can only be done by the gov't. But education is not. Actually on the average the gov't is doing a worse job educating than private institutions and is spending more per pupil to boot. The need for the most of "essential services" had come about precisely because of gov't's overregulating this or that industry.

Like the need of lower cost housing came about because of zoning and gov't preventing private land owners and developers from building as much housing (and as dense housing) as they see fit (builiding codes, zoning, etc). I know all the reasons for enacting zoning and builidng codes in the first place. But you also have to admit to all the long term negatives they produced by pricing out a huge lower income segment out of the housing market which in turn puts tremendous pressure on the gov't to come up with some sort of solution, lest we have not "only" hundreds of thousands living on the street but tens of millions.
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Old 23-03-2015, 09:45   #105
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Re: What a dump marina

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You provided a needed service for the citizens of your country. Your compensation was partly while you were on active duty with the understanding that the rest was for your retirement. Much like mine.

Put in a more understandable way, instead of being paid $30 per hour, you were paid $25 per hour with the extra $5 invested to fund your retirement.
May be this was the case 40 years ago when you started working for the gov't. Today the system is totally out of wack. I have friends and acquaintances who are in IT industry clamoring to get into a cushy gov't job. Precisely because they can make 30% more than in private industry. Not to mention the fact that they will rarely be fired from a gov't job whereas in the industry firing is a constant threat. Same for engineers. One engineer buddy of mine waited 11 years for such an opportunity. Finally by accident at some wedding he was seated next to some union boss who got him in. My buddy had been happy as a clam in these past 4 years - verry little stress, the pay is 20% higher, the vacation time is much longer and the pension accrues much faster and on much better terms. Not to mention health insurance, etc.

So your example of being initially under paid in return for a decent pension is very dated. Or disingenious.
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