Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

[gaucho]

I don't take it personally. I was born in Argentina, and have lived in many places in Latin America, and now reside a good portion of the year in Mexico, and the rest on my boat (which happens to be in the US right now since that's where I bought it). I have been to Cuba on several occasions since the late 90s. I have seen it go through the special period, and into what it is today. I have talked to many cuban nationals, including people who left Cuba to live elsewhere.

I completely understand your point. But those same cubans that farm with an Ox and a donkey, are not starving, and did get a shot at proper education and have very decent healthcare. Yes, they lack A LOT. I would never deny that.

Tell that to the typical Latin American (and I include most of the caribbean in that sentence) that fish, farm and live below the poverty line. Because it's nice and dandy to compare a middle class (or even middle upper class) US citizen to a "poor" cuban with an Ox and a donkey, but what happens when you compare apples to apples and compare that same farmer to most farmers in similar countries, with similar economies (not systems, just the economies), who have followed the neo liberal capitalist regime?

Americans seem to forget that there is actual REAL poverty; as in people STARVE and die because of malnutrition and lack of extremely basic sanitation services. This is the reality in Latin America, and most of the third world. This is NOT a matter of "creatures of comfort". Trust me, many poor people in the third world would be content enough with good food and a good quality of life they could get in Cuba vs what they have in their own countries. Compare apples to apples and see what you get.

Communism and extreme socialism is crap. Im not defending an ideology. But capitalism is crap too. We need to find places in between.

Economic and social systems are like boats; there is always a compromise. We need to find the right balance, where there is free enterprise, there are commercial opportunities, but ****ing NOBODY is left on the street, and ****ing nobody starves, and ****ing nobody gets denied basic human rights. Otherwise, the whole democracy/freedom ******** goes out the window if people are getting dumped in the process.

Originally Posted by Tellie

Please don't take this personal as it is a comment in general. As a small example, many people in Cuba are farming with Ox and donkeys pulling their plows and make a dollar or two a day. I'm sure your interpretation of the wrongs of Capitalism will ring true to their ears when you pull up in your 100k+ boat.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by gaucho

...
Economic and social systems are like boats; there is always a compromise. We need to find the right balance, where there is free enterprise, there are commercial opportunities, but ****ing NOBODY is left on the street, and ****ing nobody starves, and ****ing nobody gets denied basic human rights. Otherwise, the whole democracy/freedom ******** goes out the window if people are getting dumped in the process.

While I was in Cuba I had the good fortune to discuss with an older Cuban who grew up during the Batista era the plight of the Cuban people under each regime (Batista vs Castro). He did not like Castro, but said that things were indeed better under Castro. He was old enough to have lived thru some VERY hard times under Batista.

We had this conversation privately...unhealthy public topic.

So, many of those Cubans, with standards of living way below what is typical in the "West" are thankful for what theyve got...and happy...unlike many to the North with so much more, but taking Prozak.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

It's seems that most Latin American countries have not had good run over the last few hundred years. First exploited by Spain, then by their own governments socialist or capitalist and criminal drug gangs in the case of Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela. Even the "liberator" Simon Bolivar was a fake according to the most famous socialist, Karl Marx. It seems Spain left a legacy of authoritarianism and anarchy.

...

You left out the USA...we supported the bastard of a dictator Batista before Castro ran him outta town. He slipped out the back door of a party to a waiting plane with his family...and left his supporters to be exucuted by Che/Castro...real stand up guy.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by gaucho

I don't take it personally. I was born in Argentina, and have lived in many places in Latin America, and now reside a good portion of the year in Mexico, and the rest on my boat (which happens to be in the US right now since that's where I bought it). I have been to Cuba on several occasions since the late 90s. I have seen it go through the special period, and into what it is today. I have talked to many cuban nationals, including people who left Cuba to live elsewhere.

I completely understand your point. But those same cubans that farm with an Ox and a donkey, are not starving, and did get a shot at proper education and have very decent healthcare. Yes, they lack A LOT. I would never deny that.

Tell that to the typical Latin American (and I include most of the caribbean in that sentence) that fish, farm and live below the poverty line. Because it's nice and dandy to compare a middle class (or even middle upper class) US citizen to a "poor" cuban with an Ox and a donkey, but what happens when you compare apples to apples and compare that same farmer to most farmers in similar countries, with similar economies (not systems, just the economies), who have followed the neo liberal capitalist regime?

Americans seem to forget that there is actual REAL poverty; as in people STARVE and die because of malnutrition and lack of extremely basic sanitation services. This is the reality in Latin America, and most of the third world. This is NOT a matter of "creatures of comfort". Trust me, many poor people in the third world would be content enough with good food and a good quality of life they could get in Cuba vs what they have in their own countries. Compare apples to apples and see what you get.

Communism and extreme socialism is crap. Im not defending an ideology. But capitalism is crap too. We need to find places in between.

Economic and social systems are like boats; there is always a compromise. We need to find the right balance, where there is free enterprise, there are commercial opportunities, but ****ing NOBODY is left on the street, and ****ing nobody starves, and ****ing nobody gets denied basic human rights. Otherwise, the whole democracy/freedom ******** goes out the window if people are getting dumped in the process.

Thanks for understanding it was not personal and replying in the kindly manner you did. None of the below is either and is my final input on this thread.
I too know a lot of Cubans. Living in S. Florida all my life I have lived next to them, worked next to them, and several are married into my family. What I know, and many Cubans haven't forgotten are the Cubans that can no longer speak for themselves. The family members that have disappeared into the night never to be seen again, the tens of thousands shot by the Castro regime, the thousands imprisoned for life and tortured, the property stolen in the name of the government, a brutal regime that only tolerates a party line. I know that for every one who can't wait to visit Cuba in their yachts there were hundreds of Cubans who sailed the opposite direction in inner tubes and Banana boats to escape this workers paradise of free health care and education, etc., many who did not make it. Look, I get the simple desire to see a place like Cuba. I'm sure before the Allies invaded Normandy that many parts of Nazi Germany were fascinating place's to see as well. But the money spent in Cuba by tourists for the most part will go to the Castro brothers regimes and not just from government run hotels. The governments fingers are in everything, and those fingers are far reaching and big. These same farmers who had a chance at an education are smart enough to put two and two together and know when they are forced to sell 70%-80% of their crops to the government at far below market value that they are not getting a good deal under capitalism or communism no matter how well either does or does not do in other countries. The idea that they should be happy because other Latin countries may be worse is a poor argument. There are many other places in the world that are far worse off than all the Latin countries you mentioned. If foreign tourism is the answer to the Cuban peoples issues then it would have been solved years ago as other wealthy countries freely allow their citizens to go there and even many Americans are fond of the many ways to defy their own government and go to Cuba via other countries and spend US dollars. People can do as they wish and explain their reasoning's to themselves to justify their positions for doing anything. For me it is moral and ethical point. I have a very strong tendency, as my own personal code dictates, to draw lines. This is one I will not cross.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Economic and social systems are like boats; there is always a compromise. We need to find the right balance, where there is free enterprise, there are commercial opportunities, but ****ing NOBODY is left on the street, and ****ing nobody starves, and ****ing nobody gets denied basic human rights. Otherwise, the whole democracy/freedom ******** goes out the window if people are getting dumped in the process.

welcome to European socialism ;-)

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

welcome to European socialism ;-)

Not just in Europe. There's Canada, Australia, New Zealand ...
In the end, these countries have struck a good balance between capitalism (free market) and social responsibility. Everyone lives well and these are the countries that regularly score the highest on those UN surveys for happiness, optimism and satisfaction. There is no perfect system, but I believe the world is slowly marching toward a system like this.

[zeehag]

ok so have the regulations already been tightened? if not why ye all bickering and whining. if you donot like a proposed agenda from govt, write to govt for a reassessment of that idea. that is what usa got is all about. participation. donot participate, donot complain.
\ as for capitalism vs socialism vs communism----- which locales have the best quality of life and what is their economic base\// yes some socialist nations are in good shape--and yes some capitalist nations are in good shape and yes some communist nations are in good shape. it comes down to the basic corruption in govt--those in office. in usa we had corruption after corruption and it is not yet done. venezuela has corruption--duhh. so do most all nations. some manage it better than others. usa failed with the elected officials corruption for many years, as did venezuela.
comparing the success rats of htese economic bases without taking into account the basic greed of those elected into office is a fail game.
i noticed many praising socialism have made quite a nice killing from capitalism and now want to oppress all the rest so they are still impotent in their own eyes. oh damn i left off the r.. deliberately.
do you prefer govt pricing over competition and free markets?
do you prefer the variety of items allowed by a capitalistic economic base or do you prefer to stand in line and hope you can get that which you would like to purchase.
do you appreciate the ability to keep all your hard earned income o r do you prefer to HAVE TO share with others who donot work for theirs. when you have too much money in the bank--are you going to be happy when got removes that amount they want to remove for the ones who have nothing\/ hahaha this is real folks. cannot have it both ways.

[Flyingriki]

All these Cuba apologists can write on and on and on about how wonderful it is. One boatload of Cubans risking their lives to get out of there tells me more than any yachtie that chats with a few that didn't have the courage to get out and have to justify it.

[John Holbrook]

A similar plight here in Venezuela. Many Chavistas are thankful and believe (or believed until recently) that life was good in venezuela. Then you talk to individuals who have travelled to Trinidad or Colombia and have seen law and order, well stocked supermarkets, electricity and water that runs 24/7 and they come home angry.

Originally Posted by belizesailor

While I was in Cuba I had the good fortune to discuss with an older Cuban who grew up during the Batista era the plight of the Cuban people under each regime (Batista vs Castro). He did not like Castro, but said that things were indeed better under Castro. He was old enough to have lived thru some VERY hard times under Batista.

We had this conversation privately...unhealthy public topic.

So, many of those Cubans, with standards of living way below what is typical in the "West" are thankful for what theyve got...and happy...unlike many to the North with so much more, but taking Prozak.

[rognvald]

I always wonder during these discussions about traveling to Cuba how us loud-mouthed Americans, Canadians, and Europeans would have fared living under the iron fist of Castro and Communism. I believe there are those who place their own self-interest/desires to visit Cuba above any moral/ethical considerations about the legendary abuses against the Cuban people by the iron-fisted Fidel and, now, his brother Raul. I have close ties to the Cuban community in Miami and the tales of horror told by these remarkable expatriates are legendary. Sadly, there are some who go through life with rose-colored glasses and in some perverse way(my opinion) justify the human abuses and lack of freedom by murderous tyrants like Fidel in their desire to cruise to Cuba and earn another merit badge of countries visited. Free education? Free healthcare? A donkey or a mule? Give me a break. Good luck and safe sailing.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Flyingriki

All these Cuba apologists can write on and on and on about how wonderful it is. One boatload of Cubans risking their lives to get out of there tells me more than any yachtie that chats with a few that didn't have the courage to get out and have to justify it.

I dont think anyone here is defending the Cuban government, but rather praising the people and the beautiful island.

Most governments are ultimately bad, just some more than others.

[gjordan]

Our President does deals with China and Russia (remember the Gulags) so why the hell would he cut off the improving relationship with Cuba? The Castro brothers are pigs, but that does not justify hurting the people for the sake of hurting the Govt. I suspect it is all about the voting base in Florida, not the Cuban people. _____Grant.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I always wonder during these discussions about traveling to Cuba how us loud-mouthed Americans, Canadians, and Europeans would have fared living under the iron fist of Castro and Communism. I believe there are those who place their own self-interest/desires to visit Cuba above any moral/ethical considerations about the legendary abuses against the Cuban people by the iron-fisted Fidel and, now, his brother Raul. I have close ties to the Cuban community in Miami and the tales of horror told by these remarkable expatriates are legendary. Sadly, there are some who go through life with rose-colored glasses and in some perverse way(my opinion) justify the human abuses and lack of freedom by murderous tyrants like Fidel in their desire to cruise to Cuba and earn another merit badge of countries visited. Free education? Free healthcare? A donkey or a mule? Give me a break. Good luck and safe sailing.

Cuba has had an unfortunate long history of bad governance, since long before Castro. And yes, Castro is a bastard (but an interesting and very clever one)...he and Che murdered many in the name of their ideology...some of them their own men (...and one puppy...even Che felt bad about that).

The Embargo is a decades old failed policy which has not toppled the Castro(s) hold on Cuba. I think opening Cuba to more exchange and interaction at person to person level would go much further to undermine their regime than the sanctions have....or maybe some combination of the two.

You could view cruisers visiting Cuba as supporting an evil regime, but given the small numbers I doubt they have even a measurable economic impact. I find cruisers tend to dramatically over inflate their economic importance.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

A similar plight here in Venezuela. Many Chavistas are thankful and believe (or believed until recently) that life was good in venezuela. Then you talk to individuals who have travelled to Trinidad or Colombia and have seen law and order, well stocked supermarkets, electricity and water that runs 24/7 and they come home angry.

Its all relative to expectations and past experience. They guy in my example remembered having little food and no medical care under the also repressive Batista regime...under Castro he and his family were doing relativley much better. This was stated begrudgingly, not in priase of Castro...who he disliked.

If you are starving in the desert, a bad resturant could seem like mana from heaven. Only after experiencing 5 star dining would you know the difference.

[gaucho]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Sadly, there are some who go through life with rose-colored glasses and in some perverse way(my opinion) justify the human abuses and lack of freedom by murderous tyrants like Fidel in their desire to cruise to Cuba and earn another merit badge of countries visited. Free education? Free healthcare? A donkey or a mule? Give me a break. Good luck and safe sailing.

Really mate? Shall we discuss then US foreign policy and war engagements for the last 50 years, including every illegal and inmoral intervention the US government has been a participant of? Shall we discuss how many people have died from US bombings in the middle east? How about drone attacks? Ground operations around the world? The body count there surely will pile up quite a bit. We can compare numbers to the Castro regime, see where we land ... This is a foreign government waging war in other countries. It's called imperialism. It's by far more damaging than what the Castro administration has done in the last 50 years.

Im not trying to justify Castro, by no means. Im completely against the way he has handled the political climate in Cuba. But don't give me your self righteous US-centric Cuban expat viewpoint by playing "good guys vs bad guys". So, feel free to criticize Castro, and the way he does things. But please spare me the "we so good, he so bad" scenario. You might disagree with the political decisions a country makes, that should have nothing to do with the country, it's people, or the fact that one would like to visit that country.

I clearly understand some people have mixed opinions on this subject. But being self righteous ... that pisses me off a bit.