Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-06-2017, 10:58   #61
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,791
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

The half-century US embargo on Cuba has hurt the Cuban people more than it has ever hurt the dictatorship. It certainly hasn't hastened the end of it; I would argue the embargo has blocked Cuba from growing into a post-communist modern economy. I think it's also worthwhile to consider the extent to which the embargo as implemented is a genuine principled stance, vs a pander to an influential voting bloc. Remember that much of the Florida Cuban expats are the people who did just fine under Batista, and split when he was toppled.

It took real leadership last year to take some positive steps towards establishing a better US-Cuba relationship. Trump has done a small rollback, and as before, it's going to hurt Cuban people more than the dictatorship, (affecting hospitality jobs, the growing small businesses, B&Bs, home-stays) but at least it's not a full jump back to the full embargo, and the Embassy remains, etc.

A small sample of the corrosiveness of unchecked capitalism. It's a good system, but not perfect.
__________________

__________________
Lake-Effect is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 11:17   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 6,964
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
The half-century US embargo on Cuba has hurt the Cuban people more than it has ever hurt the dictatorship. It certainly hasn't hastened the end of it; I would argue the embargo has blocked Cuba from growing into a post-communist modern economy. It think it's also worthwhile to consider the extent to which the embargo as implemented is a genuine principled stance, vs a pander to an influential voting bloc. Remember that much of the Florida Cuban expats are the people who did just fine under Batista, and split when he was toppled.

...
The Embargo has indeed become nothing more than a sham to keep large Cuban American doners happy. I doubt its had any tangible affect on the life style of Casto's inner circle, but it has been very tough on the Cuban people.
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 12:19   #63
Registered User
 
lonesoldier0408's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Boat: Luger, Southwind, 21
Posts: 335
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

You're right, fines, as the mismanagement of most government's funds, keeps the people inslaved to that government.
Who, but a government, would knowingly fund those killing it's people, who fund that government.😕
__________________
lonesoldier0408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 12:21   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

yes, my plans are going up in smoke, too. bottom line as i see it, dtrump's move was a bone to little hands rubio. so much for being 'free to chose' what i will and will not do with my money and life. dtrump and his minions are a pathetic lot
__________________
crew overboard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 13:06   #65
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 88
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by crew overboard View Post
yes, my plans are going up in smoke, too. bottom line as i see it, dtrump's move was a bone to little hands rubio. so much for being 'free to chose' what i will and will not do with my money and life. dtrump and his minions are a pathetic lot
Yawn......
__________________
Flyingriki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 13:19   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

"Yawn" yourself! If you have nothing to add to the post, keep quiet and move on!
__________________
crew overboard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 13:33   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 1,982
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Thing is that those who want to travel to Cuba by air have never had any problem doing so and will continue. Living in South Florida, we know tons of people who always would fly to the DR and then connect to Cuba to visit their families.

Now, for boaters, it does change the situation in two ways. The first and obvious is US compliance and re-entry. However, the more antagonistic we are toward Cuba the higher the possibility of problems on the Cuba side. A simple example is that they have been very understanding of boats forced due to problems, boat or weather, to pull into Cuban waters. Might they be less friendly and easy to get along with?

There's the potential of backlash in many other parts of the world, but so far the actions and words of the President do not seem to have been held against visitors from the US.
__________________
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 15:45   #68
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,129
Images: 2
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaucho View Post
Really mate? Shall we discuss then US foreign policy and war engagements for the last 50 years, including every illegal and inmoral intervention the US government has been a participant of? Shall we discuss how many people have died from US bombings in the middle east? How about drone attacks? Ground operations around the world? The body count there surely will pile up quite a bit. We can compare numbers to the Castro regime, see where we land ... This is a foreign government waging war in other countries. It's called imperialism. It's by far more damaging than what the Castro administration has done in the last 50 years.

Im not trying to justify Castro, by no means. Im completely against the way he has handled the political climate in Cuba. But don't give me your self righteous US-centric Cuban expat viewpoint by playing "good guys vs bad guys". So, feel free to criticize Castro, and the way he does things. But please spare me the "we so good, he so bad" scenario. You might disagree with the political decisions a country makes, that should have nothing to do with the country, it's people, or the fact that one would like to visit that country.

I clearly understand some people have mixed opinions on this subject. But being self righteous ... that pisses me off a bit.


Well, obviously Gaucho, you entirely missed my point. I am not defending American Imperialism(which has been basically indefensible since Korea), but rather stating that there is no reference to that in my previous posts which focus on the brutal dictatorship of the Castro brothers and the millions of lives that were lost and destroyed by these Communist thugs. I have no "self-righteous US centric . . .viewpoint," but one that voraciously opposes communism, dictatorship and lack of freedom and liberty in any form of government. I have countless personal relationships with Cuban expatriates . . . many of whom were true freedom fighters against the murderous regime of Castro as well as many former ranking military officers in the Cuban military who defected. So your inference that I'm talking about the Cuban people in a negative way, en masse, is false and patently ridiculous. And, your claim of being "self-righteous" is not only false but misses the entire thrust of my previous comments. Perhaps you should go back and re-read what I have stated rather than to infer thoughts and ideas that have no basis in reality. Unfortunately, your response is typical of people who do not read the words written by a respondent but rather engage in proselytizing their viewpoint in a vacuum. I suggest you return to my previous posts and read what I actually said.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 16:07   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Mexico
Boat: Passport 40
Posts: 63
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I believe there are those who place their own self-interest/desires to visit Cuba above any moral/ethical considerations about the legendary abuses against the Cuban people

To me that's clearly self righteous. You are claiming moral superiority over the rest of us who want to travel to Cuba. I'm done with this finger pointing. You see whatever you want to see. Many of those "heroic" Cuban freedom fighters were people who supported another terrible dictator called Batista. Rose colored glasses? People that fight against communism are not automatically heroes or the good guys. Enjoy.
__________________
gaucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 16:24   #70
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,320
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

As if there are not enough Caribbean islands an American can visit. Sheesh. Sweltering, humid, sandy beaches are plentiful (as in the whole southeast coast of USA). ... Just how many American lives were lost freeing Cubans and Filipinos from Spanish control? (In the boondocks of the Philippines, don't be surprised if an American will be greeted by a friendly "hi Joe") ... I don't buy this American "imperialism" propaganda either. If that was so, the USA would control Mexico, Japan, Philippines, South Korea, Panama, Grenada, western Europe, northwest Africa, Iceland, and where ever.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 16:27   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,349
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Raul is very old and if Cuba opens up after his death it will be interesting to see how the Cuban people will like having the wealthy Miami Cubans coming back and trying to claim their land back. There have been three generations of Cubans living and working on the land that used to belong to the very wealthy. I certainly dont blame people for escaping the country but even if there were very good reasons for abandoning property, it was still abandoned. I suspect it will be another fight of the rich (or ex-rich) against the poor. Time will tell. ____Grant.
__________________
gjordan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 16:33   #72
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,129
Images: 2
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaucho View Post
To me that's clearly self righteous. You are claiming moral superiority over the rest of us who want to travel to Cuba. I'm done with this finger pointing. You see whatever you want to see. Many of those "heroic" Cuban freedom fighters were people who supported another terrible dictator called Batista. Rose colored glasses? People that fight against communism are not automatically heroes or the good guys. Enjoy.

Don't bale yet, Gaucho. We're just getting started. What you define as moral superiority is nothing other than a realistic evaluation of those selfish individuals whose personal desires to cruise to Cuba far outweigh the consideration of the historic suffering of the Cuban people for the last 50 plus years under the brutal dictatorship of the Castro brothers. I can assure you, the abuses of the corrupt Batista pale in comparison to the deaths, torture, imprisonment, and disappearance of those who opposed Castro. There were no rafts leaving Cuba under Batista and contrary to Communist propaganda, the Cuban people then had a better lifestyle than the average Cuban from 2008-2015 who averaged $18.66 a month and works for the government. People, that fight against Communism(Dictatorship, Fascism, and mind control) are not automatically heroes or the good guys(your words)? This could only be said by a man who has forsaken his rose colored glasses for the dark colored glasses worn by the blind. Captain Rognvald
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 16:48   #73
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,129
Images: 2
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

" I certainly dont blame people for escaping the country but even if there were very good reasons for abandoning property, it was still abandoned."
gjordan


G,
The reality is that homes, factories, businesses, and personal property were confiscated by the Cuban government after Castro assumed power. If you had a large home with 6 bedrooms and a family of four living there, it was confiscated by the government and given to a family of 8-10 people irrespective of how long your family owned the property and what it was worth. You then were given a suitable apartment for four in exchange. Ownership was by the State. In fact, after Hemingway left Cuba, his historic home was given to a large family to live before it became derelict and then was preserved as a historical museum by the Cuban government by money donated from around the world. Land confiscation is one of the first prerogatives after a Communist takeover. It happened in Russia, China, Vietnam, Korea and throughout the Eastern Bloc under Communist rule. These, perhaps, are little-known facts of those who have not studied the History of Fascism/Communism. Hope this helps. Best, Rognvald
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2017, 19:49   #74
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,791
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
the historic suffering of the Cuban people for the last 50 plus years under the brutal dictatorship of the Castro brothers.
The US embargo has been as punishing to the Cuban people as the Castro regime... AND has not hastened its end.

It seems more important to sustain a half-century grudge against anyone named Castro than to actually improve the lot of the average Cuban through engagement and trade.

The US has better relations today with Viet Nam, ffs. And, of course, China. So apparently, being a communist country or a dictatorship isn't always a serious impediment to relations and trade with the US.
__________________
Lake-Effect is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2017, 06:27   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 299
Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

The embargo may not have ended the Castro regime yet, but things are looking very fragile now the oil prices have fallen and venezuela is no longer able to financially support Cuba.

If the USA did business freely with Cuba where most big business is owned by the govt, friends of the govt or the military which represses the people then you would be crying that the USA is supporting the regime.

Look what happened when some investors bought Venezuelan "hunger bonds" recently. That was surely something that trump will stop from happening again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
The US embargo has been as punishing to the Cuban people as the Castro regime... AND has not hastened its end.

It seems more important to sustain a half-century grudge against anyone named Castro than to actually improve the lot of the average Cuban through engagement and trade.

The US has better relations today with Viet Nam, ffs. And, of course, China. So apparently, being a communist country or a dictatorship isn't always a serious impediment to relations and trade with the US.
__________________

__________________
John Holbrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Cuba

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One of those hey there, hi there, ho there posts Noreasta Meets & Greets 13 25-09-2013 11:44
Reason no ones goes west of cuba ? capcook Atlantic & the Caribbean 6 04-03-2011 15:37
Is there a Device that Switches Off the Shorepower if the Voltage Goes too High ? Fuss Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 7 23-01-2011 06:56
There goes the neighborhood! Hud3 Off Topic Forum 15 16-02-2008 05:33


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.