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Old 21-07-2017, 09:26   #1
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Weather helm when reaching

I've really nailed trimming for close-to-the-wind sailing on my Albin Vega 27, but cannot for the life of me trim for reaching/off-the-wind. In seems like no matter what I try, I am left with significant weather helm, and if a gust comes through, my tiller pilot and wind vane are unable to compensate for the helm.

I have a 135% genoa and usually have 1 reef in my main.

I also experience weather helm even when reaching with only the genoa out, so I'm at a bit of a loss of what else I can do to balance the sails.

Really open to suggestions, because I'll be reaching the rest of my way to Grenada.
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Old 21-07-2017, 09:29   #2
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

What kind of heel angle are you experiencing? Heel leads to asymmetric waterline shape and generates weather helm. Try reefing your genoa down to 100%-ish.
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Old 21-07-2017, 09:47   #3
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Try reefing your genoa down to 100%-ish.
+1 with no main and if it's still rounding up try dragging something.
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Old 21-07-2017, 09:51   #4
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Okay, I'll experiment with reefing the genoa more.

Definitely experience some heel when the weather helm starts to kick in strongly. I'll usually let out the main as much as I can as well, or reef it down to the 2nd point.

I usually am dragging something! (my dinghy)
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Old 21-07-2017, 09:57   #5
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Funny, I would say the opposite. Meaning fly less or no main. As what's most likely happening is that in gusts the main is powering up, causing your boat to want to round up (weather helm). So you want to move your center of effort forward.

This is the same reason why asym spinnakers mounted on long sprits make a boat more controllable downwind/when reaching, than does a conventional kite with the pole almost on the headstay. The boat's CE is shifted much further forward.

Also, shift as much weight as you can aft, so that the rudder stays more deeply immersed, & is thus able to control the boat better. Ditto the vane.

Think about what happens when a wave strikes you on the stern quarter when reaching. It wants to push the boat hard enough so that her ass passes her bow, otherwise known as rounding up (often uncontrollably). And is not the same true when a large force of wind impacts the sails from the same direction? Especially given that much of the jib is blanketed by the main.

I don't have my copy handy, but pick up Ivar Dedekam's Sail & Rig Trim/Tuning. It has great captioned illustrations covering 98% of the basics & semi-advanced thing tools.

BTW, while you can tune a little of this "weather helm" out of the rig, it's not so much weather helm in the classical sense. As said term is more often applied to a boat's tendency to want to round up in puffs when sailing to windward, when her sails are otherwise well tuned for the course relative to the wind, being sailed.
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Old 21-07-2017, 09:59   #6
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Is your mast raked too far aft?
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:03   #7
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Try sailing the boat flatter so that as the water sees it, your hull is less asymmetrical. The more the hull heels, the more the leeward curvature of the hull wants to round the boat to weather.

Raking the mast forward will increase your lee helm but it could negatively affect your upwind performance.

More sail put forward of your center of lateral resistance will increase your lee helm. (Less main, more jib)
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:19   #8
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Interesting idea's here.

I have a copy of the RYA Sail Trim Handbook which has been a godsend, and is basically everything I know about setting my sails.

I'll experiment to the extent that I can and see if I can find something that works.

I have an adjustable backstay, so I crank it down tight when sailing close-hauled, but I have it let out as much as it will go when reaching/downwind. I don't think the mast is raked aft more than it should be under this condition. But this based purely on a visual inspection, and the slackness of the backstay.

I would prefer a little heel when reaching, just to stabilize the boat and prevent rolling motion, but maybe this just isn't going to be possible.
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:31   #9
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

I'd also guess you're approaching or at hull speed as well which will make the WH more apparent especially with almost no forefoot on your hull. Centre of effort forward and try and slow it down.
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:37   #10
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

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Originally Posted by Ryban View Post
I also experience weather helm even when reaching with only the genoa out, so I'm at a bit of a loss of what else I can do to balance the sails.

Really open to suggestions, because I'll be reaching the rest of my way to Grenada.
How do you get weather helm with just the genoa out? Is it sheeted in at all?
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:47   #11
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

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Okay, I'll experiment with reefing the genoa more.

Definitely experience some heel when the weather helm starts to kick in strongly. I'll usually let out the main as much as I can as well, or reef it down to the 2nd point.

I usually am dragging something! (my dinghy)
You need something that will create resistance. Wraps, drogue, bucket, milk crate etc
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Old 21-07-2017, 10:49   #12
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

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How do you get weather helm with just the genoa out?
When a lot of sailboats get really powered up (by the wind), then they heel over enough so that the rudder is no longer fully immersed. Which, it then starts to cavitate (stall) as it's lost (over) half of it's efficiency. Known as end plate efficiency. So the boat then rounds up, as there's much less hydrodynamic force balancing out the forces generated by the sails.

I think we've all driven rear wheel drive cars on slippery roads. And have experienced that when you step down on the gas with too much enthusiasm, the car's ass end wants to swing around, whether the steering wheel is centered, or turned one way or the other. Which, at times this can be so severe that even if you fully go to opposite lock, steer into the skid, so that the wheel is turned all the way over to try to prevent the car from getting even further sideways. That until some of the input via the throttle is removed, you can't correct for things enough with the steering wheel (rudder) in order to get the car going straight again.

Boats are much the same. So you have to lift off on the throttle a bit (depower) the main, in order to regain/maintain control of the boat. Or if things are severe enough, depower the boat period. By dropping the main, & switching down to a smaller jib or a staysail. As once the boat's ass comes out of the water, & the rudder loses it's bite, you've little to no control via the helm until the flow reattaches to the rudder. Which usually only happens when the boat's no longer overpowered, causing her to become more upright again, re-immersing the rudder. So that it's effectiveness is restored.

This kind of event happens ever more so as a boat's beam grows, making it easier for the rudder to lose it's bite on the water. Which is why you see twin rudders on wider racing boats. So that even when well heeled, they have good steering control. This even when by most standards they're way overpowered, & are surfing down monsterous waves. Which on most boats would either cause them to spin out to weather, or to nosedive so much as to pitchpole, or come close there to.
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Old 21-07-2017, 11:00   #13
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

Looking at this Vega handbook

http://www.albinvega.co.uk/pdf/vegahandbook.pdf

My best guess would be that the genoa is too large and should be reduced to 100-110.
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Old 21-07-2017, 14:11   #14
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
When a lot of sailboats get really powered up (by the wind), then they heel over enough so that the rudder is no longer fully immersed. Which, it then starts to cavitate (stall) as it's lost (over) half of it's efficiency. Known as end plate efficiency. So the boat then rounds up, as there's much less hydrodynamic force balancing out the forces generated by the sails.
Not quite.

When looking at this problem, you shouldn't even consider the rudder. Think about sailing your boat without the rudder.

Being an old racer, many times we'd get to the starting line a bit to early and have to stop.

We then can only move the boat with our sails. We can go to port, starboard, or backup.

When we again start to move we usually have a bit of weather helm because it's how we set up the boat. Mast rake, sails, etc.

Weather helm on old cruising boats like mine (Bristol 27) is usually caused by the long boom and small jib.

A larger jib usually corrects the problem.

Weather helm occurs because the mainsail tries to turn the boat into the wind. With this bit of knowledge, your average sailor should be able to tune his boat as needed to lessen weather helm.
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Old 21-07-2017, 14:14   #15
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Re: Weather helm when reaching

I had a 31 footer that would get stuck on a close reach. So bad you could not turn the boat down wind even if you were about to have a collision. It was a new boat, broke the steering cable loose off the quadrant trying to turn it once... I concluded it was a hull shape issue......
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