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Old 23-01-2018, 12:30   #61
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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I am not blaming anyone.. just commenting on speculations.. as I said earlier it was likely a traditional old wooden junk fishing boat.. wooden boats do sink fast if some planks are sprung.
By blaming I was not necessarily pointing at you, but at others who are very fast to put there judgement out without all the facts.

I love discutions and even arguments but I like them to be based on facts not speculations and or opinion favorable or not.
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Old 23-01-2018, 12:36   #62
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

A zillion container ships a day enter and leave HongKong harbour without killing anyone; a VOR boat roars in and bingo! How is that?

Maybe container ships are predictable, maybe local fishermen stay away from shipping lanes, maybe VOR boats don't follow shipping lanes.

Do we really believe little wooden junks are safely dodging bloody great container ships doing 17 kts but can't dodge a VOR doing 20? Come on, get real here. The container ship speed thing is a complete red herring imo.
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Old 23-01-2018, 12:54   #63
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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A zillion container ships a day enter and leave HongKong harbour without killing anyone; a VOR boat roars in and bingo! How is that?

Maybe container ships are predictable, maybe local fishermen stay away from shipping lanes, maybe VOR boats don't follow shipping lanes.

Do we really believe little wooden junks are safely dodging bloody great container ships doing 17 kts but can't dodge a VOR doing 20? Come on, get real here. The container ship speed thing is a complete red herring imo.
Ok Then throw Vestas crew in jail or hang them. You believe they are responsible. I believe that no conclusion can be made without all the facts wich nobody has except those involved.
If you base your judgements on what little info is available ...there is not much I can do about it.

By the way, how many fatal marine accidents in that region happened past years?? To make a point on your argument that zillions of cargo enter and leave HK habour without killing anyone. Please share your sources..
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Old 23-01-2018, 14:19   #64
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

It appears that container ships do indeed collide with fishing vessels in the waters around Hong Kong, as recently as yesterday, and this time with 1 dead and 7 more missing at sea. This is no judgment on either side in the Vestas incident, I know none of the facts so cannot even offer an opinion.

Woman killed trying to save people thrown into sea in crash near Hong Kong waters | South China Morning Post
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Old 23-01-2018, 14:34   #65
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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Ok Then throw Vestas crew in jail or hang them. You believe they are responsible. ... Please share your sources..
Both vessels were at fault, but I don't try to make excuses for anyone by comparing containership speeds following correct procedures in shipping lanes to VORs dodging through a fleet of tiny, slow-moving junks crewed by impoverished fishermen trying to eke a living for their families from the sea. There are no excuses - this was an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 23-01-2018, 14:56   #66
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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Both vessels were at fault, but I don't try to make excuses for anyone by comparing containership speeds following correct procedures in shipping lanes to VORs dodging through a fleet of tiny, slow-moving junks crewed by impoverished fishermen trying to eke a living for their families from the sea. There are no excuses - this was an accident waiting to happen.
Not making excuses. Simply stating that there are lots of boats in this area and that a VOR65 going 20kt is no more dangerous then a cargo ship of other commercial vessel at the same speed. My point is that Vestas speed might not be the main cause.
Main cause is probably lack of appropriate nav lights.
We will know when the investigation is done

There is no report having to dodge or of a fishing fleet in the area.
Only that they crashed in a fishing boat.
There are no shipping lanes where the accident happened. The accident happened outside of the shipping lane which is marked as an exclusion zone for the VOR65

Yes this mens are poor and do try and make a living out of the sea. But they do go out in dangerous poorly built and lacking basic seagoing equipment like VHF.

Maybe the VOR and the Chinesse authorities should reconsider having such an event in that area since they can't really control it.

One thing for sure. Each VOR boat has 5 fixed 4K cameras linked to DVRs. They have plenty of footage to analyse.
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Old 23-01-2018, 16:35   #67
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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Simply stating that there are lots of boats in this area and that a VOR65 going 20kt is no more dangerous then a cargo ship of other commercial vessel at the same speed.
But the commercial ships do travel in lanes and the fishermen know where they are and can categorically avoid them. Not so with the VOR boats.

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Old 23-01-2018, 17:59   #68
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

It can be very hard to see a dim light in an area where there are bright lights around. It can be very hard to see a boat shape against the sky on a dark night, especially with other lights to distract one's eye.

Vestas had a problem with their watchkeeping, it may have come from trying to look ahead, only, and not around one's boat as well; from unfamiliarity with foreign fishing boats silhouette shapes; lack of visual acuity from darkness. It will be interesting to see how this all develops. Some countries would put you in jail for safe keeping till it comes to trial. I bet the maritime attorneys are very busy right now.

We all are expected to avoid fishing boats when they are fishing, and it can be tricky, they are kind of unpredictable: they move after they've hauled their nets, but you won't see that from a distance on a dark night. Trawlers change course on their schedule, you can't tell if they're going to aim at you when they leave the fishing grounds. When their attention is directed on their work, the fishe folk trust you to avoid them. It is from this simple fact, our burden of avoiding them, that blame will come to Vestas. Timber vessels do not make good radar targets, you may not get a return at all off one of them, plus watching a tiny app's representation of the radar screen is not adequate watch for trying to spot a timber fishing boat, imo. The phone screen display is too small (2x4.5" compared to 6" x 8") It is not adequate watch. Fog or heavy air pollution means you have less time between sighting and avoidance, too. I don't know if it was foggy or dim when the accident occurred.

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Old 23-01-2018, 18:10   #69
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VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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But the commercial ships do travel in lanes and the fishermen know where they are and can categorically avoid them. Not so with the VOR boats.

Jim


Even with commercial vessels traveling in shipping lanes, collisions still happen. I posted a link earlier about just such a collision on the same day as the Vestas incident. One person dead, and seven missing at sea, likely dead at this point. This does not absolve Vestas in any way if they did not exercise all due caution, but we all need to reserve judgment until all the facts are known.
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Old 23-01-2018, 23:26   #70
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

I'm not sure anyone reading this thread has grasped how these south-east asian fishermen live. One of the most memorable and enjoyable times in my life was being allowed to assist those fishermen launch and recover their outrigger fishing canoes, and being invited into their homes - grass huts built along the edge of the beach. They had few possessions other than the clothes they wore and their fishing boats that sustained them. When we question whether they were showing the correct regulation lights, or had VHF, radar reflectors or other safety gear, I think we are judging them from a Western perspective. A VHF for one of those fishermen could amount to an entire lifetime's earnings. Lights - how would they power them? If we plan to sail in those areas then it behoves us to understand that we are stepping back in time 100 years.
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Old 24-01-2018, 00:57   #71
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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I'm not sure anyone reading this thread has grasped how these south-east asian fishermen live. One of the most memorable and enjoyable times in my life was being allowed to assist those fishermen launch and recover their outrigger fishing canoes, and being invited into their homes - grass huts built along the edge of the beach. They had few possessions other than the clothes they wore and their fishing boats that sustained them. When we question whether they were showing the correct regulation lights, or had VHF, radar reflectors or other safety gear, I think we are judging them from a Western perspective. A VHF for one of those fishermen could amount to an entire lifetime's earnings. Lights - how would they power them? If we plan to sail in those areas then it behoves us to understand that we are stepping back in time 100 years.
This is a link from an earlier post.. ???????????????? 10???? - ?????

so probably not a junk rigged job as Boatie suggested or a dugout ... but both his and your posts stand...

Seems it was a PRC as opposed to an HK boat ( there is a difference) so yes.... not the best career for a bright young man... even in the PRC.

And anyone who expects 'western' standards in inshore fishing fleets in East Asia needs to get out more....
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Old 24-01-2018, 01:00   #72
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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Ok Then throw Vestas crew in jail or hang them. You believe they are responsible. I believe that no conclusion can be made without all the facts wich nobody has except those involved.
If you base your judgements on what little info is available ...there is not much I can do about it.

By the way, how many fatal marine accidents in that region happened past years?? To make a point on your argument that zillions of cargo enter and leave HK habour without killing anyone. Please share your sources..
I wouldn't be too surprised if that is exactly what happens pre trail..... and possibly after..... depending on the outcome....
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Old 24-01-2018, 04:45   #73
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I'm not sure anyone reading this thread has grasped how these south-east asian fishermen live. One of the most memorable and enjoyable times in my life was being allowed to assist those fishermen launch and recover their outrigger fishing canoes, and being invited into their homes - grass huts built along the edge of the beach. They had few possessions other than the clothes they wore and their fishing boats that sustained them. When we question whether they were showing the correct regulation lights, or had VHF, radar reflectors or other safety gear, I think we are judging them from a Western perspective. A VHF for one of those fishermen could amount to an entire lifetime's earnings. Lights - how would they power them? If we plan to sail in those areas then it behoves us to understand that we are stepping back in time 100 years.


Stepping back in time 100 years??? I believe you are 100 years behind....
Hong Kong, Shenzhen and the rest of the Pearl River delta is one of the most advanced and thriving areas in the world ....
The Fishermen fishing just off HK probably come from Zhuhai, Shekou, Dapeng and other places near by ... and none live in grass huts!

I live in the area, sailed the area and frequently drive in China... yes it is chaotic and accidents happen more frequent than in other places.

I would rather wait for the outcome of the investigation before concluding who’s fault it was.

But the grass hut, and 1 set of t-shirts guys are not the ones fishing where the accident occurred ... they are locals in the Philippines and Indonesia fishing in their home waters .
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Old 24-01-2018, 07:07   #74
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

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In my opinion, more attention simply needs to be paid to how these crews are doing collision avoidance. There should be remote monitoring by race officials of AIS data from the boats, and severe penalties for COLREGS violations, up to and including instant disqualification. For a race like the VOR, there should be a qualified committee evaluating COLREGS compliance including violation of safe speed in crowded waters. To require the crews to do collision avoidance properly will just add to the challenge -- appropriate and, if you ask me, fun.
I agree but the problem is when a sponsor is putting hundreds of thousands or millions into a race, the net result is they often do their best to cover the liability without addressing the safety. Last thing the orgainizers want to do is kick out one of the sponsor's boats.

What really scares me is some of the people on this thread implying or outright saying, it's a race and they can't be expected to put safety first. If they want to put themselves at risk it's one thing but once an innocent bystander gets hurt, that's unacceptable.

We don't have all the information to throw them in jail at this point but it sure looks like enough to put them in custody until all the information is collected.
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Old 24-01-2018, 07:16   #75
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.

Guy's,

The one thing that we can be (almost) certain of is that there was fault/blame on both vessels.

In this case, I personally suspect significant fault on both sides.

Vestas most probably had a 'watch', but it also most probably was not a very effective watch, with headsail blocking the visibility out over the port bow (I doubt at sea they had the guy standing right on the bow which they use on start lines), and spray generally reducing forward watchkeeping. And there is most definitely a question about the proper exercise of judgement ('safe speed' and 'seamanlike precautions') when you are sailing thru an area dense with small low visibility craft.

While Vestas probably had 'proper' lights, they were (probably) up 35m in the air, and not at all something the fishermen were looking for.

The fishing boat - we don't know much about, but I doubt they had proper lights and doubt they were keeping much of a watch.

I will be curious how the investigation goes and how/if the results are made public.

One question I am curious about which someone here might be able to answer - can anyone make an intelligent/fact based guess whether the fishing boat was doing the sort of fishing that qualifies as 'fishing' in the colregs (eg with gear in the water that restricts their maneuverability)? That would affect their ability to respond if they had seen vestas, especially if seen only when pretty close & closing rapidly. I doubt they were running the proper 'fishing lights'.
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