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Old 22-10-2014, 10:39   #16
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

Funny, we had this issue come up on my last passage, only in a very friendly way. Everyone was in the cockpit, we were crossing the Columbia bar for home port. The least experienced helmsman was on, he wanted the experience of crossing the bar. We had a very experienced captain on board, and there was me - owner and some what experienced.
Conditions were ideal. Almost no swell in the middle of the flood. The captain had him start cutting the inside of the channel. OK I thought on the outside, but as we go around the corner the sandbars become more unpredictable. Well you guessed it- he had our man continue to cut. At the most critical point (IMHO), I told him to get out in the channel. The captain disagreed with me, but I gently pointed out that as long as I was on deck the boat would go where I wanted it to, and I deferred to him on his boat.
He continued briefly to support his position, but the boat went back in the channel. No hurt feelings. Just a understanding.
BTW- I would not sail with someone who would try to exert their authority on someone else's boat.
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Old 22-10-2014, 11:07   #17
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I had a drunken a-hole try to do the same last summer as a guest on our boat, he claimed to be an experienced delivery captain. Turned out the only thing he'd ever delivered was his own boat down to the pump-out station at the end of his pier to empty his own S&%t... which he seemed to be full of.

It was a PITA to get rid of him... never again, screen your guests well.

You are the skipper on your own vessel, if one of your guests isn't comfortable with the idea, drop them off immediately. I almost ended up on the public beach thanks to the idiot and another time... nearly run over by a huge fishing boat. Rid yourself of the problem individual immediately, don't wait like I did.

If the S&%t ever ends up hitting the fan while someone like you describe is onboard, you'll really have problems because they won't listen, they'll argue and then you'll begin to question yourself... a very dangerous situation.

Ken
Agreed ... perfect example of how having experience on a boat that could avoid problem from escalating into making it 100x worse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Collision is less likely if you turn to starboard
Depends on which tack you are on, and which hand you are holding your martini in at the time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
I knew someone was going to pick apart my example, but you are also proving my point that if you don't listen it could be too late becuase you "know" starboard is better. In my defense I also didn't say what we were colliding with or in what orientation. Could be another ship or even an ice berg
otr... point well made... BTW... everybody knows to head dead straight into a berg... It's those glancing blows that pop yer rivets...

Sanibel... I would have turned to him and said:

"Sounds like you have far more experience with collisions than I do... Should the occasion arise, I'd be happy to give you command of my vessel"...
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Old 22-10-2014, 12:55   #18
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

I was merely referring to colregs, avoid turning to port where a risk of collision exists, but of course I know you just typed that off the top of your head and for sure a turn to port might be a better option under certain circumstances, ie icebergs!
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Old 22-10-2014, 13:04   #19
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

Sanibel, next time a situation like that comes up? Tell the guy not to worry, because you'll be sure to THROW HIM OVERBOARD BEFORE THERE'S ANY DAMAGE.

He can't be liable if he's not on board, right?
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:07   #20
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

As a licensed captain and instructor, I have never hear of such a thing, for all the reasons mentioned. You were hearing an ego at work! In the charter industry, captains often help other captains deliver boats....not unusual at all. But there is absolutely no doubt as to who is in charge.

Besides, it would make no sense, since people may have different endorsements on their licenses, and grossly different experience. Let's just say that our wannabee captain does not have a sailing endorsement? Would he still think he should take over a sailboat? And, if I, a sailor (with some powerboat experience, but quite limited) were on the 80 foot powerboat of a non-licensed owner, assuming it was within my tonnage, would I expect to be the authority? Maybe, maybe not. And if the captain of the QE2, who for the purposes of this discussion is not a sailor, told me what to do on a sailboat, would I necessarily obey? I would certainly listen as what he was talking about might be common to all vessels, but I would make my own decision.
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:33   #21
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
Funny, we had this issue come up on my last passage, only in a very friendly way. Everyone was in the cockpit, we were crossing the Columbia bar for home port. The least experienced helmsman was on, he wanted the experience of crossing the bar. We had a very experienced captain on board, and there was me - owner and some what experienced.
Conditions were ideal. Almost no swell in the middle of the flood. The captain had him start cutting the inside of the channel. OK I thought on the outside, but as we go around the corner the sandbars become more unpredictable. Well you guessed it- he had our man continue to cut. At the most critical point (IMHO), I told him to get out in the channel. The captain disagreed with me, but I gently pointed out that as long as I was on deck the boat would go where I wanted it to, and I deferred to him on his boat.
He continued briefly to support his position, but the boat went back in the channel. No hurt feelings. Just a understanding.
BTW- I would not sail with someone who would try to exert their authority on someone else's boat.
I know you said this was a friendly exchange and it seemed the chain of authority was clear.

However sailing by committee can be frought with issues.

I was rail meat on a race crew and was telling my railmate that we were sailing in unfavorable currents and pointed out where we should be sailing. He asked why I didn't inform the ower/drive & tactician.

"He's paying the bills. He can take his boat any place he pleases."

As crewman I have quietly given my opinion to the tactician many times. Not a "public" announcement so the crew can hear. Also, some boats want opinions, others not so much.

However, when I am "driving" anyone's boat I make it clear that I am in charge/skipper until relieved.
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:44   #22
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

That statement may have been the result of what is commonly told to newer captains by older ones: "you now have a target on your back"
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Old 22-10-2014, 21:59   #23
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USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I know you said this was a friendly exchange and it seemed the chain of authority was clear.

However sailing by committee can be frought with issues.

I was rail meat on a race crew and was telling my railmate that we were sailing in unfavorable currents and pointed out where we should be sailing. He asked why I didn't inform the ower/drive & tactician.

"He's paying the bills. He can take his boat any place he pleases."

As crewman I have quietly given my opinion to the tactician many times. Not a "public" announcement so the crew can hear. Also, some boats want opinions, others not so much.

However, when I am "driving" anyone's boat I make it clear that I am in charge/skipper until relieved.

If on someone else's boat I wouldn't even "give my opinion" to another unless safety is immediately requiring that.

You bring up the flying stuff a lot. I am a major airline captain. I'm captain of my boat. No one else's.

Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 22-10-2014, 23:08   #24
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as crew

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I knew I shouldn't have brought up the aviation thing. This quote -

"Where a person is seated in the aircraft, and even whether a person lacks qualifications, is not necessarily relevant in the determination of who is the pilot in command."

Comes from this article.
.
At least from a military perspective (and I am guessing commercial aviation) the PIC is designated on the flight schedule which is considered an official document (signed by Operations Officer and Commanding officer). Other crew members may be questioned on their part in the incident but final responsibility for the flight rests with the PIC as he has the authority...
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Old 23-10-2014, 01:47   #25
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

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Originally Posted by AlwaysFORSAIL View Post
I am a licensed USCG Master, ASA instructor and have taught USCG licensing courses (6 pack, masters, towing and sail). There is one, count 'em, one, master of each vessel no one is required to be licensed for anything as long as the vessel's passengers are not paying for the boat ride.
Not the case for a bareboat charter.

In our club, each member has paid an equal share for the sail and there is no legal captain. Instead, we have all split a charter and are equally liable. Who the skipper is on a given day is a matter of etiquette, not law.

It creates problems.
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Old 23-10-2014, 02:42   #26
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Not the case for a bareboat charter.

In our club, each member has paid an equal share for the sail and there is no legal captain. Instead, we have all split a charter and are equally liable. Who the skipper is on a given day is a matter of etiquette, not law.

It creates problems.
I thnk that as you start cruising foreign countries you'll find that the authorities will require someone to be designated as the skipper/captain.

If you are involved in a collision, the sea court will ask who was the skipper.

Having a split ownership does not necessarily cause problems re: who is the skipper. Simply enter in your log on every sail who is the skipper of the boat that day.
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Old 23-10-2014, 04:20   #27
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

When we go to Canada, we get asked who the Master is. We just flip a coin.

The problems it causes are that etiquette works fine until someone forgets his etiquette, or discovers he's fresh out. Occasionally, we find out that it looked like etiquette and it sounded like etiquette, but since he was lying, it never really was etiquette.

No I have an A list, a B list and a C list.

The A list is the folks I like to sail with. The B list is everyone else I'll sail with. And the C list is the No Sail list.

Etiquette can get you knocked a list or two down.
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Old 23-10-2014, 06:51   #28
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

This thread puts me in mind of the story of a Royal Navy ship (I think) back in the 1800s or late 1700s, which was lost in the fog approaching the Channel. The officers seemed to be helpless to determine their position, but one of the common sailors felt he had a good sense of their location, so he spoke up. For his impudence he was lashed and hung from the yard. Shortly thereafter the ship wrecked on rocks near the Scilly Isles (I think) with only one or two survivors. Wish I could recall the ship's name and details. . . .
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Old 23-10-2014, 07:37   #29
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

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Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post
This thread puts me in mind of the story of a Royal Navy ship (I think) back in the 1800s or late 1700s, which was lost in the fog approaching the Channel. The officers seemed to be helpless to determine their position, but one of the common sailors felt he had a good sense of their location, so he spoke up. For his impudence he was lashed and hung from the yard. Shortly thereafter the ship wrecked on rocks near the Scilly Isles (I think) with only one or two survivors. Wish I could recall the ship's name and details. . . .
I read that story in the first part of the book "Longitude" but I can't remember the name of the ship either. I seem to remember it was several ships that went on the rocks and several hundred lives lost as a result of that navigation (and crew resource management) error.
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Old 23-10-2014, 07:49   #30
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Re: USCG Licensed Captain as Crew

Thanks for remembering "Longitude." Your memory is better than mine!

So that gave me something to Google, and I found this Wikipedia page on the disaster. Turns out it was 4 ships lost from a squadron. But the tale of the common sailor speaking up may just be a myth. . . .

Scilly naval disaster of 1707 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"One myth associated with the disaster alleges that a common sailor on the flagship tried to warn Shovell that the fleet was off course but the Admiral had him hanged at the yardarm for inciting mutiny. The story first appeared in the Scilly Isles in 1780 with the common sailor being a Scilly native who recognised the waters as being close to home but was punished for warning the Admiral. It was claimed that grass will never grow on the grave where Shovell was first buried at Porthellick Cove because of his tyrannical act against an islander. The myth was embellished in the 19th century when the punishment became instant execution and the sailor's knowledge of the fleet's position was attributed to superior navigational skills instead of local knowledge. While it is possible that a sailor may have debated the vessel's location and feared for its fate, such debates were common upon entering the English Channel, as noted by Samuel Pepys in 1684. Naval historians have repeatedly discredited the story, noting the lack of any evidence in contemporary documents, its fanciful stock conventions and dubious origins.[16] However the myth was revived in 1997 when author Dava Sobel presented it as an unqualified truth in her book Longitude.[17]"


~~~Sorry for the thread drift!~~~
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