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Old 27-02-2014, 15:38   #106
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

I like a chain grip on my snubber that I can release and attach without much action or even direct contact with my hands....




I don't know the manufacturer, but it's stamped "ABI" and it can be disengaged by simply drawing in the chain rode or engaged by swinging the bridle snubber lines out from beneath the chain. .... no fingers, no touch.
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:39   #107
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

jtsailjt

When I am asked
"Would YOU leave YOUR boat sitting unattended for a few days ?"
I do not assume the real question is "Should I leave MY boat ....."

And when I write
"If I had to leave MY boat ... here's what I would do"

I do not intend other people to assume I am really saying
"If YOU have to leave YOUR boat ... here's what I think YOU should do"

I don't see this to be a strict Q&A forum. I consider it a discussion forum.

I'm overstating the case in my opening gambit above, because actually I agree with you that the OP was hoping for specific guidance, but I personally would not be happy trying to give it, without spending half a day with the guy and asking HEAPS of questions. The stakes are too high, and the info given was negligible.

60 posts into what had become a more wide-ranging discussion about leaving boats unattended, I think it was unrealistic on your part to expect every post to be tightly focussed on giving the OP specific guidance, and despite my careful wording, it seems you have misunderstood my intent in posting.

And it seems to me you were going out on a limb when you stated that, after a week unattended on a single anchor "His boat will be there when he returns". That doesn't suggest to me that he would need to hover nearby throughout the interim period.

However your subsequent comments in red make it clear that is what he would need, in your opinion, to do.

- - -

I'm not sure why, but you also seem not to have noticed three separate occasions where I have made it clear that I don't favour using all chain for the third anchor. My first post on the topic was not a detailed recipe but a brief overview of the geometrical concept. I do however apologise for my lapse; I normally err on the side of dotting too many I's and crossing too many T's.

- - -

So .... I'm wondering whether to put the time into answering your detailed questions. If I were to be ungracious, I would hide behind their irrelevance to the OP's needs, but in reality, I'm not confident of your careful consideration of my answers. It doesn't help that it seems to me that some of your questions have been answered in previous posts.

But I'll compromise by briefly touching on some answers. Hopefully someone reading this might find something which would at least leave them pondering some new lines of enquiry. I'm tailoring this answer to boats carrying a bare minimum of chain: One all-chain rode, and one shorter chain, mixed rode.

Setting two anchors at 120 degrees can be done on the main chain:
First set up waypoints for the three anchors, and one for the Centroid. The distance from the centroid to waypoint 1 should be short enough, in relation to the length of the main chain, that you can get the swivel to the surface to attach the third anchor warp, bearing in mind that when you drop it, it should be near the centroid

Drop #1 at waypoint 1, set it with the chain lying over waypoint C.
Steam to waypoint 2, drop #2 on the other end of the main chain.
Hopefully you will have thought to rig some sort of saddle around the chain before dropping it, with a line from the yacht to the saddle. If you have a suitable (ie proper) saddle, it also gets around the problem of attaching the swivel to the midpoint of the main chain.

I attach a picture showing roughly what I mean by a saddle, although the purpose (and scale) of the item shown is somewhat different.

After steaming to a line bisecting anchors 1 & 2, the saddle should be hauled up tightish and immobilised to the chain in order to set anchor 2 (using a line to get the necessary scope, and pulling towards or through waypoint C), and also because otherwise anchors 1 & 2 will not see the load always from the same direction.

I can think of about nine ways of doing this, but it will depend what sort of substitute saddle you can improvise. A large bow shackle will serve the purpose at a pinch, provided the 'immobilising' is done in such a way as to present a fair load to the two halves of the main chain.

Now the third anchor can be laid on a mixed rode, from a dinghy. If you don't have a portable (or any!) GPS, the yacht can be idled in reverse to hold station over point C, so the dinghy can estimate where waypoint 3 would be.

If the chain is long enough, it CAN be hauled up to the junction at the saddle, running the rope rode through the saddle or a snatchblock clipped to it, so you CAN have an all-chain mooring, but not from a dinghy! (Unless it's a pontoon workboat or somesuch)

I've done this in a shallow anchorage but it would be a mission in a deep one, and diving gear would (I think) make it a lot easier to get a compact setup.
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:50   #108
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Thanks Nigel1 for the shackle picky. Can you see the picky I posted of the chain chaser (a piece of kit you will no doubt fondly cherish) because all I can see is Rotate Image

Has anyone found a fix for this annoying glitch?
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:40   #109
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

I see the picture, a Bruce chasing collar. Dont see so many of them about any more.
The issue with the pictures is being looked at by the techies
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Old 27-02-2014, 18:52   #110
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
All this quoting from books..... it's just theory or some 1960/80 opinion of someone wanting to sell his ideas in their book.
We need away to tell which helpful advice comes from those that are out there doing it, and the lounge sailors who interpret what they read as gospel and post it as such.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
There is more than one source for saying to use a 3 anchor system. It is recognized as a good system for hurricanes too. I have read it many times.
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Old 27-02-2014, 20:55   #111
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

What I have quite frequently done is actually functionally similar to a star mooring, and requires less setup and gear:

That's to substitute a shoreline for the third anchor.

It's often approximated by simply putting out bow anchors port and starboard and taking a sternline ashore. Usually the anchors will not be 120 deg apart, perhaps 90 at most.

While this is good in a tight cove where the wind always blows from the entrance, it can be problematic in situations where you may get stiff breeze from other directions, and here the swivel setup is a godsend if your stay will be prolonged.*

The angle of spread should ideally be increased if changing to a swivel setup, although the anchors will be in much the same place - this is because the two chains will now join well ahead of the bow.

I reckon it's a smart move to adjust the shoreline tight enough to keep the star junction quite deep in the water.

Then it can be a really snug setup, with the star junction restricted to quite a compact range, everything staying below the keel, and the low junction acting to increase the effective scope quite usefully. (if you overdid it, the anchors would be put under increased strain, but I presume they would simply drag until the angle of the lower chains is less flat).

I suppose the gold standard if leaving the boat for an extended period would be two shorelines, also spread. Then the junction would be pinned down like a bug under a microscope. ;-)

I might do this if there was little in the way of tall trees ashore, or some other reason to leave the position particularly exposed.

* for a short stay, I prefer to forget about swivels, and simply take a shoreline to the bow, or near the bow, on each side, led away aft, diverging, to the shore. It will be usually be necessary to ease the leeward one if gusts come from abeam, although sometimes kellets will do the job, particularly if you have retractable appendages.

(I still would not like to leave such a setup unattended, though ...)
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Old 27-02-2014, 21:01   #112
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pirate Re: Unattended at Anchor

Originally Posted by SimonV
All this quoting from books..... it's just theory or some 1960/80 opinion of someone wanting to sell his ideas in their book.
We need away to tell which helpful advice comes from those that are out there doing it, and the lounge sailors who interpret what they read as gospel and post it as such.


Now that is a real mouthful. We're talking Chapman's here, not Joe Sailor's blog. I'm thinking you may be unfamiliar with the text.

I try to avoid the cut and paste sailors as much as you do. The way to tell who knows what is by reading and evaluating over the longest period you can. Mr. Troup wouldn't be termed a lounge sailor by any critical CF reader.

I'm reminded of someone challenging CFer Evans Starzinger (may be a sp error) on use of drogues when the SHTF. Rather than taking offense, Evans simply responded that he had actually deployed these systems at sea, when needed.

Many readers like me aren't in the same league as some of these guys but still aren't lounge/armchair sailors. I'm a 6 anchor guy meself. My 3 lite wt Fortresses are broken down and stowed. I have left a boat at anchor for days at a time when forced to, but I hate doing it. I know it's considered old fashioned but I've always set a Bahamian moor in the past. Now that I have an appropriately sized Rocna, I'll have to re-evaluate.
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Old 28-02-2014, 06:43   #113
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
I like a chain grip on my snubber that I can release and attach without much action or even direct contact with my hands....




I don't know the manufacturer, but it's stamped "ABI" and it can be disengaged by simply drawing in the chain rode or engaged by swinging the bridle snubber lines out from beneath the chain. .... no fingers, no touch.
I had one of those but managed to drop it overboard where I didn't want to dive for it and started using a piece of nylon line I had onboard and a rolling hitch to attach it to the chain. After awhile I got a second, thinner and more springy line and installed chafe gear on both of them where they pass through the chock and continuing out to where they could possibly contact the anchor if winds really kicked up. You do have to touch the chain to tie the hitch but there's nothing to rust or bang against the deck or topsides paint but it's easy to stow aboard and it's cheap! If I'm aboard and no big winds are expected I use the thin snubber so it's like a big elastic band that eliminates any shock loads. If it ever breaks or my rolling hitch unties itself (hasn't happened yet), I'll probably hear it and as a backup I also have the anchor chain secured with another short section of nylon that passes through a chain link just forward of the windlass and is secured at both ends to a deck cleat. In stronger winds or if leaving the boat unattended for a length of time, I dig out the thicker snubber for more security.
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Old 05-03-2014, 20:31   #114
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Regarding unattended anchoring:

There is a setup I've occasionally used which it strikes me would be a good option for anyone seeking to improve both their anchor hold and their snubbing resistance.

It's particularly applicable for boats with a long all-chain rode, using (by old school yardsticks) "light" chain. And it's a great way of anchoring on a shorter scope than would otherwise be necessary.

It offers long-term self-snubbing in an entirely chafe-free manner, no rope or anti-chafe gear required ... which is highly desirable for unattended anchoring in exposed locations.

And it requires absolutely minimal additional equipment: in fact, a box of shackles is all it takes.

I wonder if anyone reading this has come up with this independently?

If they have, what I've already said is probably sufficient by way of clue. If not, it makes it potentially an interesting brain teaser (particularly for confirmed 'lounge sailors' like me)

This method, to my mind, nicely complements the 'vertical zig-zag rode' idea I posted a year or two ago, which was particularly effective in shallow water (which can pose serious anchor holding challenges)

This alternative method works in shallow or deep water , but it works particularly well in deeper places.

There is one major disadvantage, when it come time to retrieve. It's a bit of a fiddle --not a problem unless it's blowing hard when that time comes. And if it's blowing so hard you need to exit the anchorage, this setup means you will have to slip your anchor and rode on a buoy, and retrieve it later, which is not always going to appeal.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:59   #115
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Regarding unattended anchoring:

There is a setup I've occasionally used which it strikes me would be a good option for anyone seeking to improve both their anchor hold and their snubbing resistance.

It's particularly applicable for boats with a long all-chain rode, using (by old school yardsticks) "light" chain. And it's a great way of anchoring on a shorter scope than would otherwise be necessary.

It offers long-term self-snubbing in an entirely chafe-free manner, no rope or anti-chafe gear required ... which is highly desirable for unattended anchoring in exposed locations.

And it requires absolutely minimal additional equipment: in fact, a box of shackles is all it takes.

I wonder if anyone reading this has come up with this independently?

If they have, what I've already said is probably sufficient by way of clue. If not, it makes it potentially an interesting brain teaser (particularly for confirmed 'lounge sailors' like me)

This method, to my mind, nicely complements the 'vertical zig-zag rode' idea I posted a year or two ago, which was particularly effective in shallow water (which can pose serious anchor holding challenges)

This alternative method works in shallow or deep water , but it works particularly well in deeper places.

There is one major disadvantage, when it come time to retrieve. It's a bit of a fiddle --not a problem unless it's blowing hard when that time comes. And if it's blowing so hard you need to exit the anchorage, this setup means you will have to slip your anchor and rode on a buoy, and retrieve it later, which is not always going to appeal.
A picture could be worth a few hundred words........
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:03   #116
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pirate Re: Unattended at Anchor

Box of shackles ... check.

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Old 06-03-2014, 10:20   #117
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

That chain grip pictured by capt force is.sold by sea dog and can be ordered through most marine suppliers
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Old 06-03-2014, 17:11   #118
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
A picture could be worth a few hundred words........
Oh, I already drewed that, don't you worry; it's waiting in the wings.

However, it's my game and my rules

And the rules are, you don't get to see the picture until you've tried to solve the puzzle.

In the meantime, thanks to BlueCrab for busking for the bystanders (and me), in his inimitable way.
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Old 06-03-2014, 17:45   #119
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pirate Re: Unattended at Anchor

Well yeah.

Sure, I had to Google "busking" but that gave me the opportunity to see that that's what gorgeous Gadagirl did with that great "Intermission" post on the Boaty Channel. I am smarter now. And about time!
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Old 06-03-2014, 17:47   #120
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Ok I will play

My guess is that you are referring to using the weight of the chain as a Kellet.

Chain in the locker does no good. It is always better to deploy it normally to increase your scope, but this is not always practical.
By shackling loops of chain together you can use the excess chain to apply extra weight to rode. The loops of chain act as a Kellet.

I must admit I am not a great fan of Kellets used for the purpose of increasing the holding power, but if you do want a Kellet, chain has lots of weight and excess chain that would be left in the anchor locker can be easily converted into a Kellet just with a shackle forming a loop of chain.
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