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Old 26-02-2014, 22:00   #91
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

I've checked what Steve Dashew has to say on this specific topic

(another well known 'lounge sailor' ;-) all his boats these days are floating lounges, but it was not always thus)

and he makes the same suggestion about the third anchor: stick with a mixed rode (ie, rope where it meets the junction of the star)
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Old 27-02-2014, 04:18   #92
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Isn't this hugely difficult to do right? I can see the star configuration working in theory and much easier with hand held anchors and rode, but what I can't see is the process of how you would get all to set properly using normal chain and heavy anchors and using decent scope before loading them up. The first would be easy, the second, if a long rode is used on the first might be a struggle, but doable, but then the third? I can see getting wrapped up in your own cat's cradle whilst managing three heavy very long lengths of chain on and off the windlass. Then how to position the boat accurately to lay the third is another problem.

Wouldn't it be an idea to have the 3 legs different lengths, so if they did break out each anchor and particularly the best wouldn't get tripped whilst they tried to re-set?

As you point out. to pull from the side of a link isn't ideal. I wonder what is the capacity of a chain link when pulled that way?
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Old 27-02-2014, 05:51   #93
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

I hope everyone is getting the idea of a 3 anchor "star" or whatever you want to call it is for a permanent or relatively long time mooring. If you prefer the idea over others, sure it could be set up to survive just one "storm" as the total effort wouldn't be much mre than other "storm ideas" especially if you already had access to the materials

It isn't really necessary or even desirable to try to set it all from the deck of one boat just arriving in a location.

It is to be made from material specific to the mooring...not what you use every day for normal anchoring.

If parts of the mooring are used in different way from normal, their sizes or shapes need to be larger or modified.

The idea is neither new or unkown...there are entire mooring fields made from these setups from what I have read.....usually by local that have neither the boats or equipment to move heavy commercial type mooring anchors and setups.
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Old 27-02-2014, 10:53   #94
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
"All chain rodes" are not just unnecessary in setting up a multi-anchor mooring, they are undesirable. However in the case of the main anchor, which is likely to have such a rode, bundling it up as I suggested is a reasonable option for occasional use.

The swivel can be relatively close to the anchors; the scope is determined by (L1 or L2 or L3) + L4; as long as L4 is long, the chains attached to each anchor can be short.
I didn't really think that you or anyone else has 3 all chain rodes but in your original post you said to shackle all 3 chains without the above explanation of where you intended to locate the shackle. As I mentioned before, your setup sounds great for an expected hurricane or if leaving your boat for a very extended period of time. but the OP was only talking about leaving his boat for a week or less so it sounds like a whole lot of overkill to me. If he has just one good anchor properly set, especially with an all chain rode, with no big storms predicted, his boat will be there when he returns.
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Old 27-02-2014, 11:35   #95
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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... the OP was only talking about leaving his boat for a week or less so it sounds like a whole lot of overkill to me. If he has just one good anchor properly set, especially with an all chain rode, with no big storms predicted, his boat will be there when he returns.
If you refer back to the post where I raised this, I was not making suggestions for the OP, I was responding to his exact question.
And if you refer back to the OP, he was asking if WE would leave OUR boat unattended.

Even disregarding that, your suggestion presupposes he is in a part of the world where weather forecasts are reliable for seven days. And you're suggesting he bet his boat on that. And forfeit his insurance cover, if he has any.

I live in a place where, at times, forecasts are barely reliable for one day. We had a thunderstorm which removed the roofs from several houses less than a week ago, when the forecast the previous morning was for settled weather.

For some of the places I sail, given the severe and changeable conditions, the potential exposure, and the difficult bottoms, the notion of leaving my boat unattended on a single anchor for a week does not fill me with enthusiasm.
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Old 27-02-2014, 12:26   #96
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Isn't this hugely difficult to do right? I can see the star configuration working in theory and much easier with hand held anchors and rode, but what I can't see is the process of how you would get all to set properly using normal chain and heavy anchors and using decent scope before loading them up. The first would be easy, the second, if a long rode is used on the first might be a struggle, but doable, but then the third? I can see getting wrapped up in your own cat's cradle whilst managing three heavy very long lengths of chain on and off the windlass.
Hmm - in my post immediately prior to yours, I reiterated that I would NOT use all-chain on the third rode.

I would only do this if setting up a permanent mooring, which would need diving gear and a raft or (preferably barge-like) support boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Then how to position the boat accurately to lay the third is another problem.
Dinghy + Fortress or Danforth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Wouldn't it be an idea to have the 3 legs different lengths, so if they did break out each anchor and particularly the best wouldn't get tripped whilst they tried to re-set?
I wouldn't expect them to break out in anything short of a hurricane. And I don't think a star mooring is an efficient use of anchors for hurricane situations.

My take is that the usual 'breaking out' pattern involves the anchor being "walked out" due to the boat sailing from side to side, and/or the wind shifting cyclically.

People who've had a tenacious tooth extracted without a general anaesthetic may wince at this point ...

It seems to me it's the way the star layout defeats this mechanism which makes it the gold standard for improvised (or efficient) mooring.
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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
As you point out. to pull from the side of a link isn't ideal. I wonder what is the capacity of a chain link when pulled that way?
If I get a bit of time I might do that analysis. But it would not be a lot of help, because it would only be applicable for a steady pull. Unquantifiable factors come into play in the real world for fluctuating loads in such an "impure" setup.

There are probably tabulated fudge factors for de-rating lifting chain when using a chain hook, (best practice substitutes a devil's claw, which avoids the bending) but the situation under discussion is worse, because both "legs" of the bridle come under load. And it's worse again, and more complicated, because it's not a steady load.
It could be worse, of course: at least, using a long shackle to swallow the middle link, that link is edgewise to the load, rather than side on.
Fluctuating load regimes, involving cyclical bending, are not something high tensile steel weldments enjoy in the long term, particularly when immersed in a corrosive medium, so I certainly would not consider this if I used high tensile chain ...

(which personally I don't and wouldn't - even without meaning to, such circumstances might arise in admittedly very unusual cases, like a chain being trapped in a crevice in high-quality rock)
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Old 27-02-2014, 14:18   #97
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
If you refer back to the post where I raised this, I was not making suggestions for the OP, I was responding to his exact question.
And if you refer back to the OP, he was asking if WE would leave OUR boat unattended.
...and you didn't think that he was asking that to get advice about what HE should do? You thought he was just curious about what you would do where you live or keep your boat rather than where he would be leaving his boat?

Even disregarding that, your suggestion presupposes he is in a part of the world where weather forecasts are reliable for seven days. And you're suggesting he bet his boat on that. And forfeit his insurance cover, if he has any. No, I'm not suggesting that he forfeit his insurance coverage at all, and the situation as stated wasn't one where he would be committed to leaving the boat there if the forecast changed. I make my living as a commercial pilot flying all over the world so I'm not even a little bit naive about the reliability and variability of weather forecasting. As far as the reliability of 7 day forecasts go, that depends a lot on the season and the location. Where I am in Maine for example, I'd be a little more reluctant to depend on them during the spring or fall, but from the middle of June to at least the middle of August, unless there's already a named storm approaching the Caribbean, I wouldn't worry about it a bit. And if my boat was just a couple hours drive away like the OP mentioned, I wouldn't worry about leaving my boat anchored in any season because if there was a sudden change in the forecast I could go tend to it. But I acknowledge that in some parts of the world, where weather fluctuations tend to be much more severe, I'd have a more conservative approach.

I live in a place where, at times, forecasts are barely reliable for one day. We had a thunderstorm which removed the roofs from several houses less than a week ago, when the forecast the previous morning was for settled weather.

For some of the places I sail, given the severe and changeable conditions, the potential exposure, and the difficult bottoms, the notion of leaving my boat unattended on a single anchor for a week does not fill me with enthusiasm. I'm sure that's true for most of us, but he didn't ask about where we sail or have sailed, and instead was asking about a particular location, likely with a muddy bottom, and during a season when hurricanes don't happen, and close enough so he'd have access to it if conditions changed significantly. That's a whole different situation from just dropping your anchor on a hard bottom and leaving your boat with no possibility of return for 7 days no matter what the forecast might become.
Response to your post in red above.

Also, if you don't have 3 all chain rodes that you intend to shackle together, how much chain do you have on each of your 3 anchors that will allow you to shackle all 3 chains together? It seems to me that it's going to pretty tough to actually set 3 anchors in precise enough a location for all 3 so that you will then be able to bring all 3 chains to the surface and then shackle them together before paying out enough scope to ensure a good angle for anchoring. Is this something you've actually done before or is it just something you read about? If you've actually done it, I'd be interested in hearing how you overcame the obstacles and managed to get 3 anchors all well set and located precisely enough so whatever the amount of chain there was attached to each anchor, you could gather them together at the surface to shackle them together. It sounds like it's way beyond the ability of just about anyone I know. Have you successfully used this method of anchoring and if you did, how long did it take to set it all up?
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Old 27-02-2014, 14:26   #98
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

i anchor for long durations of time....i leave to shop and provision and re provision..i do not take overnight away from boat with or without the cat these days..i may be able to do this again when i am back in the marina...but i do not trust the majority of folks here anchoring ... too many drag because they will not listen to someone who has anchored here and watched boats slide by.....lol...or they disbelieve that the amount of chain placed is as much as is stated...lol...they learn.
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Old 27-02-2014, 14:47   #99
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Do you know of a good (metal) device that I can attach to a chain 'midspan'? I suppose I could mouse a normal chain hook but that does not sound safe dragging around the bottom. If an off-the-shelf device is not available, I will make up some kind of lockable (bolted) chain hook from heavy plate.

And for those that are questioning the number of anchors some folks carry, I currently only have 4 aboard. But I would love to find a second hand Fortress (cause they are so cool) and make it 5.

Steve
Steve,

Something like this



Properly mouse the pin and it should be secure
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Old 27-02-2014, 14:51   #100
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Which 3 anchors make are required? Does a fisherman anchor count as a full or half anchor. Does a CQR even count as anchor now or does it require time travel to count? Does a "new generation count as 1.5 or 2? What if the anchor is oversized? What if all 3 anchor are the minimum "lunch hook" size, do you now need 4? If you have room to store all 3 anchors would it be better to have fewer and bigger anchors? How many anchor would a 5000 lb mooring block as? If you drink a 6-pack first can you get by with only 2 anchors?

I thought I was getting the big picture of this anchoring stuff but now wonder if I've just been lucky.
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:07   #101
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Steve,

Something like this



Properly mouse the pin and it should be secure
G'Day Nigel,

I've never seen such a shackle! Where does it come from, and what is it's purpose ? Neat looking bit of kit...

Jim
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:17   #102
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Hi Jim

Been using this to attach a snubber to the chain.
The proper name is Kong Chain Gripper Shackle
Kong Stainless Steel Chain Gripper Shackles

Only bought the thing as it was in the bargain bin at a chandlers.
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:25   #103
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

I don't buy into this plan of having different anchors for three different directions or the plan that suggests multiple anchors increase holding. I like sand or clay with a shallow depth, a long chain rode, little fetch, few neighbors, all on one good anchor. If I'm expecting a tropical storm I'll add a forgiving shore of sand or mud and little debris in the area along with a high topography to windward. In will also rig standby snubbers to stand ready if the primary snubber chafes or fails. I've had several ocassions to power away from a planned anchorage and I'm not going to abort my position with success if I have many anchors out. ....or even attempt a reset with more than one anchor out. Of course, the topic is leaving the boat at anchor while you are away. I only leave my boat at anchor when the weather is fair. It's not the case that I leave my boat in an area with risk of tropical storms in the season, but I will plan for the ability to handle the twenty minute line squall winds and I'll do that on one anchor in the best of selected locations. Once again "Location" is the key!
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:26   #104
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Thanks Nigel,

That is just the ticket.

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Old 27-02-2014, 15:29   #105
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Working on a plan for a departure date. something that would help would be to get my boat and anchor her closer to an inlet the weekend before as my marina is 8 hours away. Holding and current protection in that area is supposed to be great. I have two anchors I could put out. Would you leave your boat sitting unattended for a few days ?
Just refreshing as to the original question too. It was an area he wasn't personally knowledgeable of but others said holding and current weren't issues. Wind perhaps not either.

But the issue goes beyond the anchors holding and includes just leaving the boat un-watched in that area for days. Not an area where he's anchored many times before or knows those nearby.

So it's more than a testimony to someone's ability to anchor. It's an unknown area, an extended time, unattended and un-watched.

Now the other posts are interesting but there is also some bias here toward thinking the only issue of anchoring is knowledge and skill of setting the proper anchors.
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