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Old 26-02-2014, 10:26   #76
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

you put 3 anchors out in a semi busy anchorage and leave for a week expect to hopefully still have ONE when you come back after everyone else gets caught in them when they anchor
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Old 26-02-2014, 13:20   #77
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I'm sure that would work well in all but hurricane conditions, but do you really have 3 anchors with 3 all chain rodes, plus an extra length of chain plus a mooring swivel onboard?
"All chain rodes" are not just unnecessary in setting up a multi-anchor mooring, they are undesirable. However in the case of the main anchor, which is likely to have such a rode, bundling it up as I suggested is a reasonable option for occasional use.

The swivel can be relatively close to the anchors; the scope is determined by (L1 or L2 or L3) + L4; as long as L4 is long, the chains attached to each anchor can be short.

An expedition yacht which was likely to use this setup fairly regularly (where the yacht was to be left unattended for weeks or months in a remote location) might consider using a Kenter or similar joining shackle (like a DCCL) in the main rode, at a suitable distance from the anchor, so that the main rode could be "broken" at this location for insertion of the swivel when setting up a mooring. This means no extra chain is carried.

I've not encountered any such vessels which do not have multiple anchors. I have encountered some which had to head back to civilisation to restock, having been unable to recover an anchor on more than one occasion. There are parts of the world where anchoring is a fraught occupation.
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Old 26-02-2014, 14:21   #78
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by marlinmike View Post
This has got to be the most ridiculous post I've ever seen, "three good anchors"
Actually it's straight out of an old Chapman's I have...52nd Edition, page 114...

and I quote...."A modern permanent mooring system scientifically designed as a vast improvement over single mushroom systems. 3 lightweight anchors are bridled 120 degrees apart. From the intersection a relatively short rode limits swing."

the figure is in the upper right hand corner of the page.

Not only some crow to eat...an apology to that poster you blasted would be appropriate.
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Old 26-02-2014, 18:08   #79
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

All this quoting from books..... it's just theory or some 1960/80 opinion of someone wanting to sell his ideas in their book.
We need away to tell which helpful advice comes from those that are out there doing it, and the lounge sailors who interpret what they read as gospel and post it as such.

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Old 26-02-2014, 18:34   #80
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Must have worked well for Chapman's, now on 67th edition, not bad for a bunch of lounge sailors ...

or perhaps you consider me to be a lounge sailor. I certainly didn't crib the three anchor moor from Chapmans, so perhaps you are right.

I actually first came across it when I was doing some design work for Robert Danforth Ogg, and he sent me his research findings (for the US Govt, who considered him something of an expert) which established this as the most efficient mooring setup - a radical breakthrough, at the time.

I had wondered about something along these lines for short term stays in anchorages exposed to multiple wind directions, but the swivel was an element which had not yet occurred to me.

But I apologise, I'm not helping you with your problem: how to tell good advice from bad. I fear I can't help you with that.

The only method I know requires a modicum of experience coupled with a whole bunch of knowing how stuff works, and the latter is (I think) most thoroughly arrived at from a lifetime of making predictions about things which might work but have not been tried yet, and then seeing if they actually do work
(and if they don't, study why not ... modify the idea if it has promise, and try again).

And I can imagine any number of reasons why my method would not work for you.
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Old 26-02-2014, 18:39   #81
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

In defence of psneeld (seeing he came to mine)

re SimonV's comment "all this quoting from books" ...

I imagine the reason he quoted from one of the recognised "Bible"s of seamanship was that, on the internet, pretty much the only alternative when trying to explain something to those who are struggling to believe something which is well attested is to puff out your chest and say "Because I say so" ..... which leads precisely nowhere.
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Old 26-02-2014, 18:50   #82
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
All this quoting from books..... it's just theory or some 1960/80 opinion of someone wanting to sell his ideas in their book.
We need away to tell which helpful advice comes from those that are out there doing it, and the lounge sailors who interpret what they read as gospel and post it as such.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
A little aside here. How do you know that "those that are out there doing it" are actually doing it right? They may be lucky, they may have found something that works for them which will not work for somebody else. Would you take advice from Hot Dog on the flying thingy as gospel, or the couple from France with Primadonna? There are no definites so cut and dried as to be so dismissive of one category of advice.

I know a man who is completely land bound now. But he has sailed various boats for thousands and thousands of miles. Should I now not listen to him because he is no longer "out there"?

Coops.
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Old 26-02-2014, 19:38   #83
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
All this quoting from books..... it's just theory or some 1960/80 opinion of someone wanting to sell his ideas in their book.
We need away to tell which helpful advice comes from those that are out there doing it, and the lounge sailors who interpret what they read as gospel and post it as such.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
I used to tell people of my real world experience on here but they all got bitchy saying that my professional experiences didn't mean diddly and that they asked some pimply faced kid fresh out of training who agreed with them. ......so I stopped.... sorta.....

Now I just post stuff verified by at least one well know expert source that agrees with my experience and in this case to show that someone who called the 3 anchor mooring the most ridiculous post ever....well what can I say...I'm just an armchair sailor in a world full of internet experts....
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Old 26-02-2014, 19:55   #84
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Well for me, I like the simplicity of 1 anchor. Sure I carry 2 on the bow pulpit and a large Danforth underneath in the event if a hurricane, but I only set out one anchor. Usually it's my Bruce. I like it and I've learned to trust it. I also like the idea of only setting out one anchor because I like the idea of being able to get out if dodge quickly. Never know when you'll have to get up and go. I also don't use all chain and haven't had any issue. Nothing against it but I'd rather not pull it all up without a windlass.
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Old 26-02-2014, 20:04   #85
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Well for me, I like the simplicity of 1 anchor. Sure I carry 2 on the bow pulpit and a large Danforth underneath in the event if a hurricane, but I only set out one anchor. Usually it's my Bruce. I like it and I've learned to trust it. I also like the idea of only setting out one anchor because I like the idea of being able to get out if dodge quickly. Never know when you'll have to get up and go. I also don't use all chain and haven't had any issue. Nothing against it but I'd rather not pull it all up without a windlass.
Check out the thread title ... also the context for the suggestion of a star moor.

If you leave your boat unattended on one anchor, you can probably kiss your insurance premiums goodbye.
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Old 26-02-2014, 20:10   #86
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Well I will leave my boat on anchor for the day, but I'm always on it at night or if the weather turns bad. I recently had to fly home and picked up a mooring ball so I wouldn't have to worry with it.
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Old 26-02-2014, 20:43   #87
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
"All chain rodes" are not just unnecessary in setting up a multi-anchor mooring, they are undesirable. However in the case of the main anchor, which is likely to have such a rode, bundling it up as I suggested is a reasonable option for occasional use.

The swivel can be relatively close to the anchors; the scope is determined by (L1 or L2 or L3) + L4; as long as L4 is long, the chains attached to each anchor can be short.

An expedition yacht which was likely to use this setup fairly regularly (where the yacht was to be left unattended for weeks or months in a remote location) might consider using a Kenter or similar joining shackle (like a DCCL) in the main rode, at a suitable distance from the anchor, so that the main rode could be "broken" at this location for insertion of the swivel when setting up a mooring. This means no extra chain is carried.

I've not encountered any such vessels which do not have multiple anchors. I have encountered some which had to head back to civilisation to restock, having been unable to recover an anchor on more than one occasion. There are parts of the world where anchoring is a fraught occupation.
Andrew, As an alternative to the Kenter link in the main rode, I have been contemplating (as a lounge sailor, currently) setting up my multi anchor system by leaving the main rode whole and simply detaching it from the anchor and reattaching to swivel. I want to use my #2 rode's chain segment (80 ft.) for 2 of the 'chain to swivel segments' but I would rather not cut it.

Do you know of a good (metal) device that I can attach to a chain 'midspan'? I suppose I could mouse a normal chain hook but that does not sound safe dragging around the bottom. If an off-the-shelf device is not available, I will make up some kind of lockable (bolted) chain hook from heavy plate.

And for those that are questioning the number of anchors some folks carry, I currently only have 4 aboard. But I would love to find a second hand Fortress (cause they are so cool) and make it 5.

Steve
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Old 26-02-2014, 20:43   #88
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

well the one time i left my boat on anchor was in the comores islands during cyclone season.....not unattended,as such,as my brother and his wife thought it would be romantic to stay onboard,whilst i spent the night performing "entante cordiale" with a french lady who had taken a shine to the capitan............

during the night a tropical depression formed over the island with 70 knot winds tracking round the clock in the exposed reef anchorage in dzoudzi,mayotte.....my brother didnt manage to get much sleep.....fortunatly as per usual i had chucked every foot of my 300 ft of chain as i do even if anchored in 20ft of water,(we were in 60 ft)

so the moral of the story is "when in love ,make sure your pick digs deep,even if it has to do a 360..............".

i had a great night,trees blown over the next day,and i think my brothers wife took a strong dislike to boats after that night...........
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Old 26-02-2014, 21:11   #89
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Love the moral of the story...
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Old 26-02-2014, 21:56   #90
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Re: Unattended at Anchor

Steve

The problem with the Kenter, as you will have guessed, is that in most setups it will not fit through the navel pipe, even if it gets around the chainwheel OK.

I've wondered the exact same thing you raised, and I have a vague recollection of seeing an "off the shelf" solution in the shape of a 'devil's claw', like the ones used in heavy fabrication shops on crane and lifting chain, but with lugs for a keeper pin to stop it falling off. This would be much less prone to snagging on rocks than a chain hook, and gives a fairer lead.

Nigel1 or Nicholson58 might know of something?

Personally, for the number of times I expect to find myself having to set up a star mooring, I've pretty much decided I would just use a long shackle (extra-deep in the throat) to join the swivel to the midpoint of the longer of my spare chains (to service two of the anchors, as you suggest, shackling the main rode to the other end of the swivel) by swallowing the entire width of the link, and the eye of the shackle.

The third anchor, if there is one, I would set facing the least challenging direction, and this could be on a short chain lead and rope rode, which is a much more practicable proposition to rig -- given how that rode draws everything together on snugging it up -- than all-chain.

This proposition puts an unfair strain on the single link which is lying sideways in the jaws of the long shackle (although using a single chain hook, or even a single devil's claw, is not a lot better)

I figured on using multipart short spectra lashings, one to transfer the load from each chain (ahead of the junction) direct to the swivel. These would take the load, leaving the hapless sideways link as a backup. (My chains are oversized and moderate tensile: I would never try this with high tensile chain)

I would wrap the finished lashings in industrial grade self-amalgamating (black rubbery) tape for chafe protection.

I think this would be plenty good enough for a few days away, even in "tiger country" (although of course not in coral latitudes - but I don't go to those places these days).

For a longer expedition ashore in a remote location, I think I'd take a hacksaw to the spare chain and do it proper.
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