Ukraine Boat Builders Inquiry

[Jolly Roger]

Let's just wait and see what Vlad's friend comes up with shall we?

[osirissail]

For the amount of money involved I would suggest it is prudent to fly over there and look over the operation. If the guy is building boats in his back yard; or if he does not have real hull molds and is instead laying up "free hand" then I would be rather skeptical of investing that kind of money.
- - I am assuming the boat is FRG and not wood. I would also suggest personally inspecting other finished boats from the guy to see what the product actually looks like in real life. What the wood finish is made from and how the electrical and plumbing is done. Standards in Russian and former Russian countries is rather basic and is definitely very different from "western" standards and practices. Unless you go and look around in real life - you might just be "buying that bridge" Sailtoo is selling. The differences in construction techniques and standards is significantly different from those in the E.U. and USA/Canada. Generally speaking they don't have any standards. Access to resins, cloth, teak, boat fittings, masts, 316 Stainless rigging is very difficult in countries that are not historical centers of recreational boat building.
- - You might just be buying something that cannot be resold in the E.U. or might only bring a fraction of your costs in the N/S Americas. And then there is insurance . . .

[David_Old_Jersey]

Sounds less like a Scam and more simply unfamiliar with western business practices and customer / buyer expectations (and their concerns / fears)..............and vice verce!

Wouldn't be unsurmountable to do a deal, but not without any risks - even if 110% legit

In some respects the Boat Builder sounds a bit like an old style Western boat builder - knows what he is doing as a boat bulder and knows what he wants to build, just not so hot on the business side including understanding what the customer wants / needs...........and we know what happened to most of them

For the Ukraine I would see his first overseas market as Europe not the USA (for cultural and practical purposes). Scandinavia or Germany perhaps? Certainly he needs an Agent in his overseas market(s) to help establish him and to babysit / handhold the punters.

[osirissail]

Just a little to add to DOJ - if the guy is building and selling to the E.U. then he has to meet the ISO standards which are quite high and that would be a very good indicator of a reputable product. - - Go take a look in person . . . . Mail-order brides and mail-order boats can be quite disappointing unless you can get your hands on the product before you purchase.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Just a little to add to DOJ - if the guy is building and selling to the E.U. then he has to meet the ISO standards which are quite high and that would be a very good indicator of a reputable product.

My bet is that (if legit) that builder has not yet exported, as would have mentioned early on. Could well be looking to move from the domestic commercial boat buiding market (I recall their economy is not so hot - but own currency which is good for exports) into the western recreational market.

Although not in my personal market boatwise it doesn't look an unreasonable move from commercial to large recreational in the style chosen - would be a bigger leap from fishing boats (??) to making a Sunseeker

Be interesting to hear more..............


...........now, about those mail order brides

[Vlad S]

Hi

Jolly, the reason that you didnt find the address on Google is because it is a Russian word spelt in English letters. In Google 'Sumy' has all street names in Ukrainian. You should look for Mashinobudivnikiv str, both of those words mean 'machine builders' in English.
I also found it quite irratating that they did not have their own website. But anyway thanks for the address, lets just check out what company that is and what kind of products they make.
Ofcourse the quality of the material, rigging, sails ect. is a big concern and i was wondering where they cutting the cost, one of my guesses is that they buy and import everything directly because they might not have dealers in Ukraine for the boat industry.
Jolly, what type of hull construction are you looking for, wood or fibre glass? And what kind of design are you looking for?

[Jolly Roger]

Well Vlad, that’s just the sort of information I was looking for in my original post, not a load of speculation based on guesswork. I’m prepared to bet, based on my conversations with Capt. Shaposhnikov, that his operation is in fact genuine, but as I say, let’s wait and see shall we?
I’m looking for just the sort of schooner and size he is offering, which I can convert to a modern Bermudan rig—which he said he could still do for the price. Obviously, there aren’t many folks making these nowadays, so even though it clearly sounded too good to be true, I decided to follow it up.
I was never going to just cough up and wait for a boat to pop into the Black Sea some time in November. I always intended to go and inspect the place, and find myself a surveyor or someone who could oversee the work and send reports and photos back.
It all came unstuck with their insistence on a non returnable deposit before we agreed a detailed spec. and whether the price did or did not include sails.

[Vlad S]

I did not know they wanted deposit before the agreement. I also would'nt pay a cent.
Try to Google TRIERA SHIPYRD also in Ukraine no idea do "zey" speek English and what are prices like, but they say, that they build castom classics. I jast found their web by acsedent.Looks like they make masts in the hous.

[Israel]

Hello Jolly,

I have just joined this forum. I'm from Spain and am planning a visit to Sumy very soon. Their designs and prices are exceptional in comparison to European shipyards, where you would pay more than double those prices.
I have exchanged many e-mails with Pavel and so far I have a good impression although the information is quite limited. I read your quotes with great interest on the matter, it seems that the best would be to find a local marine surveyor to oversee the building process, but as you said, in Sumy that is quite impossible.
They seem to build very large boats so I guess it would be very interesting to contact some owners already to share their experience...

I will write my impressions when I return from my trip to Sumy.
Kind regards,
Israel.

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

I want to ask if anyone has had any dealings with Capt Pavel Shaposhnikov, and his boat building company In Sumy, Ukraine?
They are offering exceptional value to have a traditional schooner built there, then transported to the Black Sea for launch.
My correspondence with Capt Shaposhnikov has been most amicable to date. He is very accomodating and has a good grasp of English, which is an important consideration when having a boat built in any non English speaking country, especially the old USSR. I am therefore considering flying out to take a look at his boat works, and workmanship, but Sumy seems a very difficult place to get to from America.
It sounds like The Ukraine might become “the new Formosa,” and I just wondered if anyone can add anything constructive which might help me?

[Vlad S]

Hi everybody,
Sorry, I haven't been on this forum for a while.

Posted by OSIRISSAIL:
"...Access to resins, cloth, teak, boat fittings, masts, 316 Stainless rigging is very difficult in countries that are not historical centers of recreational boat building...."

For rigging and sails, they are using suppliers like Nordic, North Sales and couple more, they do have access to all the materials, also they do build in wood, that is what Capt. Shaposhnikov told me, the question is how do they put all materials together to make it a boat. Yes, building technique is different.
I was e-mailing to Capt. Shaposhnikov and he kindly sent me some images of his boatyard and boats. Personally, I didn't like what I have seen on those pictures. I don't want to display those pics on the forum, it might look like anti-Shaposhnikov campaign, but if somebody wants to see it, please drop your private e-mail address and I'll send it.
I did ask Shaposhnikov, is the boat he will build for me gonna be a real blue water cruiser, durable and has a good sea motion, and I didn't receive the answer.
I asked Capt., can I have any reference for his products, can I have contacts of owners who are sailing some of your boats, no answer again.
He mentioned that he has two customers (one from Canada, one from America) and if I sign the Letter of Intent and pay him deposit of 5000 Euro I will get even cheaper price, but he refused to give me e-mail address of these customers, and all he was insisting on just a deposit.
So I didn't waste my time to ask him any technical or other questions about his boats.
The company offers a lots of designs but no boats are floating around. I believe Van der Stadt has less designs but they are all real boats.
Prices might look very exceptional but read their advertising carefull - it has no sails and a very basic boat. Don't you get what you paid for? (I meant quality too).
So far I wish Capt. Shaposhnikov all the best but I'm not his customer.
If somebody is looking for GRP boats I would rather recommend to look at Delphia Yachts Poland or Elan Yachts or Salona Yachts Slovenia and Croatia.

[osirissail]

There is, of course, no problem in "importing" all the parts, resins, woods, etc., necessary to build a modern boat except of course the hassles of government importation fees and regulations. Add those fees (and bribes) to the cost of transportation to import the parts and you are bound to at least double the "materials" cost of a project. If the labor costs are a fraction of what it would cost you in a "western" boat building location then maybe you might end up with a "deal." These are all very big "if's."
- - I have seem Russian metal (steel) boats commissioned by westerners looking for a "bargain." On the outside things looked great, but after looking into the bilges and not-normally-visible areas I saw woodwork made from used scrap housing lumber and iron and other non-marine materials. There are specific woods and metals that are designed for the oceans and seas. Using used or even new "land-housing" materials is not conducive to building a boat that will last a reasonable length of time. In one specific case the boat almost did not make it from its construction yard to Florida as it was dissolving and falling apart. After the boat arrived (6 months old) it has to be junked.
- - So an on-site personal inspection of the boat building operation armed with the knowledge of what is needed to make a ocean going boat is very important. Second best, is to have serious recommendations from recent customers as to their boat.

[Vlad S]

Hi Osirissail,
I absolutelly agree with all you have said. When I looked at the photographs of the boat yard I was really disappointed if not shocked.

[roadrunner250]

Hi and Mery Cristmas @all,

Sailing is my favorite, but unfortunately I do not have time combined with money enough to by an own yacht. I go for charter in mediterranean, baltic, north and atlantic. But nevertheless dreaming is not forbidden, so I have always a look at the online yacht market.
In one of these markets I also found the Pavlov Shaposhnikov Design for a 54" yacht for an unbelievable price.

I have very good friends in Ukraine and I went more or less often into the country.

So I ask one of them, with excellent contacts in the country, and he answered:
"Regarding your question: As far as I could find out, no one knows/ or heard about this Pavlov Shaposhnikov... and it seems that the only completed yachts are on the pictures online; at this point I'm afraid it's all virtual. "

But he also told me, that there exists 2-3 excellent shipyards in the country with great experience in commercial vessels and expanding their business into custom built private yachts. They actually have yachts in production for the european market.

It seems to be I will be in Ukraine next spring and maybe I will have time to visit one of these shipyards. If you want to give me some questions on the way, please send me PN.

kind greetings from cold and snowy Germany
Oliver

[fstbttms]

You guys play in a different financial league than I do, but even if that were not the case, I would be very, very wary of dropping $150K on a boat from an unproven builder in a third world country who's biggest export is probably credit card stealing mobsters. I can't believe any of you are still actually considering using this "yard". How many red flags do you need?

[Jolly Roger]

I started this thread because I was very interested in the type of boat which Shaposhnikov was offering, but I could not believe the ridiculous price. When I first spoke to Global Yachts, the USA agent, they had never visited the Ukraine works, or actually met Shaposhnikov, so that caused me to have great reservations. Yet I see they are still offering their various models in Yacht World.
I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in this case I am very pleased I started the conversation and decided not to go ahead. But there is nothing wrong with exploring things, even if they seem too good to be true - so long as you satisfy yourself if they are.
I can well imagine by now I would be in the middle of a big mess, and with too much money invested in the project to back out.
So after talking at length with others on this forum I decided to buy a boat I could actually see with my own eyes, and I now own a fifty foot American built Down East Schooner, which I am very pleased with.