Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-05-2014, 08:55   #346
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

In that earlier, close-up photo of the hull (see, e.g. Post #290), there appears to be another, larger hole that looks like it was the result of the laminate being torn off further down the hull. The immediately surrounding area looks like it could have been an old thru-hull that was re-glassed perhaps. Maybe neither here nor there, but could have contributed to the reported water coming into the boat as the keel started to fail.
__________________

__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:05   #347
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Maybe some (three?) bolts first failed through fatigue, the boat took on water and the added stress on the rest caused the hull to fail?
__________________

__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:09   #348
Head in a locker
 
Cavalier's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Boat: Beneteau 461 47'
Posts: 875
Images: 1
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
In that earlier, close-up photo of the hull (see, e.g. Post #290), there appears to be another, larger hole that looks like it was the result of the laminate being torn off further down the hull. The immediately surrounding area looks like it could have been an old thru-hull that was re-glassed perhaps. Maybe neither here nor there, but could have contributed to the reported water coming into the boat as the keel started to fail.





That hole looks as though it was uncovered as the boat rolled and the keel pulled sideward taking the outer laminates with it (like bark on a sappy twig). The outer bonding of the integral frame can be clearly seen in that photo.








Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk
__________________
"By day the hot sun fermented us; and we were dizzied by the beating wind. At night we were stained by dew, and shamed into pettiness by the innumerable silences of stars."
Cavalier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:13   #349
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,915
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Dave and Boatie...ya I do agree that taking a modern racer cruiser into oceans known to get a bit stinky is the skippers responsibility and not the builder. Having said that I don't think the builder should be advertising their boats as offshore designed and built when at best they might better be described as "offshore light".
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:15   #350
Registered User
 
four winds's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wandering the US Gulf Coast
Boat: 78 Pearson323 Four Winds
Posts: 2,136
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

When the keel departed, three of the bolt holes (rather the area around them) provided little resistance. As evidenced by the lack of damage.


Seems the center of the attachment area was taking the forces. More concentrated load in effect. Less spreading through the structural grid mentioned earlier. Even looks like three elements of this grid can be seen. Being revealed when the keel tore away to starboard.
__________________
Life begins at the waters edge.
four winds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:24   #351
Head in a locker
 
Cavalier's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Boat: Beneteau 461 47'
Posts: 875
Images: 1
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Dave and Boatie...ya I do agree that taking a modern racer cruiser into oceans known to get a bit stinky is the skippers responsibility and not the builder. Having said that I don't think the builder should be advertising their boats as offshore designed and built when at best they might better be described as "offshore light".





..worth a read, especially "Rob_Webb" on page 2:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...ferences/page2







Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk
__________________
"By day the hot sun fermented us; and we were dizzied by the beating wind. At night we were stained by dew, and shamed into pettiness by the innumerable silences of stars."
Cavalier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:31   #352
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,915
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

DownUnder,
I hear you and certainly agree with you that there are many so called traditional designs that should not be taken in the higher latitudes as many of them were poorly designed and built.
I do admit to favoring fin keeled boats for offshore sailing but I'm also bias in the design and build to be on the moderate side and prefer stick built boats.

Boatie,
I agree with you that J Boats have had a less than stellar reputation offshore and certainly would not be on my list for higher latitudes but like other production builders they seem to make out OK in the trades with the odd failure.

I just don't see the problem in coming to terms with racer/cruisers being a compromise offshore. Their design always favors performance over absolute strength just like some of the boats that favor absolute strength over performance but often they sail like straw bales so a nice moderate design/build is always a good choice for offshore in my opinion.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:34   #353
Registered User
 
europaflyer's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 385
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Highest res picture of the damage I can find posted below.

It would be interesting to have an appreciation from a pro like Minaret of what we may be looking at here; I can speculate, but I wouldn't trust myself to make a meaningful judgement.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	_75075610_140523-n-zz999-002.jpg
Views:	338
Size:	54.6 KB
ID:	81817  
__________________
europaflyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:37   #354
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,915
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Cavalier,
Can't disagree that some of the First Series and many modern boats have earned a good reputation but its very hard to decide which is which. I do know the older first series were very stout and helped Beneteau earn the reputation they enjoy today
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:48   #355
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,965
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

It is the tragic loss of four lives that so troubles me. Had only the boat been lost, this would be much easier to to take.

I don't question the crew in any way. They had the strength, experience, skill and money to sail and maintain this boat to the highest standards. I'm sure they did.

While the ocean can destroy almost anything man can create, keel attachment should not be the weak link as no at-sea repairs or jury rig is possible. Even a collision should not remove the keel.

If this was not a design error but fatigue or corrosion of bolts - should not keel bolt inspection and occasional replacement be as routine as standing rigging replacement - even required in the same way that outdated flares are not allowed?

How often should a bolted keel be dropped for inspection? How many of us do?
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 09:52   #356
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

A lot of factors to look at IMO. A production boat primarily being used for racing by a crew that likes to race. My observation around the harbor is that racers tend to break things more often than cruisers. They like to go fast and that's what they do. As a result a racing boat gets stressed more than say one that only cruises.

Though a question I have about Cheeki Rafiki's keel is was it a wing keel like the one in this picture:
http://www.beneteau235.com/images/wing_800.jpg
I just wonder what kind of forces would be at play on the horizontal portion of a Beneateau's wing keel as the boat attempts to rise as it goes through big waves over and over again in a pounding sea. The wing looks like it would make a pretty good drogue like downward force in a rough sea.
__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 10:07   #357
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
It is the tragic loss of four lives that so troubles me. Had only the boat been lost, this would be much easier to to take.

I don't question the crew in any way. They had the strength, experience, skill and money to sail and maintain this boat to the highest standards. I'm sure they did.

While the ocean can destroy almost anything man can create, keel attachment should not be the weak link as no at-sea repairs or jury rig is possible. Even a collision should not remove the keel.

If this was not a design error but fatigue or corrosion of bolts - should not keel bolt inspection and occasional replacement be as routine as standing rigging replacement - even required in the same way that outdated flares are not allowed?

How often should a bolted keel be dropped for inspection? How many of us do?
Yes I'm thinking exactly the same....I never have
__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 10:17   #358
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

One question, please, as I'm quite ignorant regarding First series construction methods and engineering.

Are their hulls now built using (famous or infamous) Beneteau's inner liner technique, or are they of more traditional/conventional construction?

Best regards

Tomasz
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 10:29   #359
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Evans star zinger has quoted on ybw, using a high res photo the the leading and trailing bolts were severly corroded , the speculation is these failed first a d then the resulting stresses tore the middle bolts from the hull.

Again I don't think this is a boat issue per say. We've have no real knowledge of what actually happened. The fact that the port lights were smashed could indicate she fell off a big wave and with the weakened keel that did all the damage.

I don't believe it's a function of the general class of boat. All boats have weaknesses. The skipper must sail the boat cognisant of the limitations. For example being below hove to would have been a very bad idea on a first.

Dave



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 10:38   #360
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Bolt issues or no bolt issues, whatever hit them was a huge catastrophic event. The fact that some of them couldn't regroup and try to free a raft is indicative. These were experienced cool headed chaps. Makes this all the more tragic.
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rafiki 37 Cored hull? SKG56 Monohull Sailboats 2 11-02-2013 07:39
Slocum 37, Rafiki 37 performance... vtcapo Monohull Sailboats 6 25-06-2012 14:03
Do You Think a Windvane Could Work on this Rafiki ? ShayW Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 8 16-09-2011 13:13
Any Rafiki Owners / Lovers Out There ? Aussie_Sequoia Monohull Sailboats 2 16-09-2011 10:00
Crew Available: Mid-February to Mid-March, 2010 solmaniac Crew Archives 0 01-02-2010 16:32



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.