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Cormorant · 24-05-2014, 05:48

It seems a bit strange, given all the search coverage, that they haven't spotted at least one body. Presumably at least the crew on watch at the time of the capsize were wearing PFDs.

downunder · 24-05-2014, 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Well on this one we will have to agree to disagree. Rear bulkheads do not crumble in well found boats in moderate conditions and keels don't fall off well built offshore yachts. Crew smarts can not make up for marginally built boats in certain conditions. I understand your point and it is of course a good one but the last 2 examples we have seen of sinking production boats had everything to do with the boat and much less to do with the crew.
When they are making these racer cruisers they are optimized for performance. They have extremely narrow sections of the keel to hull area because the thinner that joint is the better the boat will go upwind due to the end plate effect of the foil but of course unless you are using some real high tech glass and fittings it will be a weak point and after a long period of use its failure rate can be much higher than a purpose built boat with a much wider keel and several more keel bolts to hold it in place. Having one fail in sheltered waters might not be a huge deal but in rough offshore conditions, well it is a huge deal. I'd rather blame the builder on these situations than the crew. Yes you can say they sailed too far north but a rugged built boat would have dealt with those conditions, it was after all certainly not the perfect storm.

Whilst 2 production type vessels have been the last ones lost there have been two older more traditional types now at the bottom of the ocean. Fortunately both of those had crews lifted off. there is no evidence to point solely at the vessel design in either case.

downunder · 24-05-2014, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cormorant

It seems a bit strange, given all the search coverage, that they haven't spotted at least one body. Presumably at least the crew on watch at the time of the capsize were wearing PFDs.

Its a bloody big ocean that far offshore and spotting objects is much more difficult than many think.

Cheers

**boatman61** · 24-05-2014, 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cormorant

It seems a bit strange, given all the search coverage, that they haven't spotted at least one body. Presumably at least the crew on watch at the time of the capsize were wearing PFDs.

Not an easy thing out there.. also.. was anyone topside..??
Could just be they were hove to and all below the aim being to 'coddle' the boat in light of the water ingress..
Either way.. we won't know for sure till someone lifts the boat.. if that's decided..

tonywatson58 · 24-05-2014, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not an easy thing out there.. also.. was anyone topside..??
Could just be they were hove to and all below the aim being to 'coddle' the boat in light of the water ingress..
Either way.. we won't know for sure till someone lifts the boat.. if that's decided..

BBC News just commented that it's the UK's responsibility to recover the wreck (which, of course, is perfectly true). They can't just leave it out there and, I would suggest, it would be highly inappropriate for, say, the US Navy to use it as target practice...

tonywatson58 · 24-05-2014, 06:32

All - a posting on CR's Facebook page from someone who sounds like he is well informed... I quote
"We were briefed on the spec of the boat at yesterday's meeting with the foreign minister, head of the UK coastguard, and US embassy attaché. Please rest assured that everything has been considered, and the dangers of raising unfounded hope, based solely on uninformed speculation, amongst grieving families."
Amen to that

goboatingnow · 24-05-2014, 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Well on this one we will have to agree to disagree. Rear bulkheads do not crumble in well found boats in moderate conditions and keels don't fall off well built offshore yachts. Crew smarts can not make up for marginally built boats in certain conditions. I understand your point and it is of course a good one but the last 2 examples we have seen of sinking production boats had everything to do with the boat and much less to do with the crew.
When they are making these racer cruisers they are optimized for performance. They have extremely narrow sections of the keel to hull area because the thinner that joint is the better the boat will go upwind due to the end plate effect of the foil but of course unless you are using some real high tech glass and fittings it will be a weak point and after a long period of use its failure rate can be much higher than a purpose built boat with a much wider keel and several more keel bolts to hold it in place. Having one fail in sheltered waters might not be a huge deal but in rough offshore conditions, well it is a huge deal. I'd rather blame the builder on these situations than the crew. Yes you can say they sailed too far north but a rugged built boat would have dealt with those conditions, it was after all certainly not the perfect storm.

We agree more then we disagree. The 50 that dropped a rudder In my view clearly has significant prior damage that had not been fixed properly.

The first series are good boats. Yes the chord is short and they do not make good heavy weather boats. So the skipper should have taken that into account. Nor did they probably know how much wear and tear they had.

No one can say " a rugged boat would have dealt with those conditions " were you there , were you the skipper. How do you know. so called "rugged" boats are lost too.

Dave

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four winds · 24-05-2014, 07:06

The link in post #312 has a clear picture of the hull/keel attachment point. Looks like some clues to what happened may be visible.

SaltyMonkey · 24-05-2014, 07:23

Here is the image that confused me (double rudders) and an image that shows the damage from the bow view (clearly in line).

scuba0_1 · 24-05-2014, 07:31

Why are we going strait to the keel fell off vs them hitting something and it ripping off...

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Cavalier · 24-05-2014, 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

Why are we going strait to the keel fell off vs them hitting something and it ripping off...

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They had flooding issues (reportedly from an unknown source) for some hours prior to the incident. This is why they'd contacted the CG and were diverting to the Azores. If a collision had caused the initial flooding, would they not have reported that?

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scuba0_1 · 24-05-2014, 07:37

is it feasible that all the bolts would break at once from stress. I would think if a bolt snap you would hear it. If more than one gave way wouldn't there be some notice, a vibration or something in the boat to give some warning that there was something wrong.

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four winds · 24-05-2014, 07:38

Certainly didn't simply fall off.

**boatman61** · 24-05-2014, 07:45

Being hove to and sliding down a big wave and colliding with a solid object semi submerged against an already weakened keel would fit the damage scenario.. don't see the 'keel just fell off' scenario somehow..
But.. just my speculation..