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Old 19-08-2013, 18:07   #121
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pirate Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by sailr69 View Post
why are you so keen on relating AC boats to F1 racing? there are all kinds of auto racing. SCCA, rally cars, all sorts of sport car racing. I am sure any of the drivers in those classes would not want to see F1 or nascar in their classes. they also watch with interest the F1 cars and cart cars. Sailors race all sorts of boats, Finns, Soling's, 420's etc. they don't want to move up to fast catamarans. what's the point? they are all relative in their boat speed. boat speed is not the only thing people like to race for. soooo, you like to watch speeding cats, so what?? nothing wrong with that. quit talking trash to us.
I have to agree. I have great respect for many of you, based on past posts, but this thread has been too contentious and unpleasant. And hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on this stupid **** blows my mind. I'm going back to the nice threads where matrons can outsail the guys and aren't afraid to say so, by gum. Where's that ignore button?
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Old 19-08-2013, 18:16   #122
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Re: Twenty Knots

Just as a reminder to all have posted about the wind speed limits, they were introduced just recently after the Artemis tragedy.
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Old 19-08-2013, 18:16   #123
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Re: Twenty Knots

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No more than the average person would look at a F1 race that won't race in the rain or other adverse environment.

20kts is not exactly no wind. Relatively low wind limits in the AC programs compared to other race programs have been around for many years.
You need to do some fact checking. While indy cars don't race in rain, F1 usually does. Indeed, it's a major part of the sport. I'm not certain why you keep wanting to model sailboat racing under F1 racing, however, unless coming from Michigan has something to do with it. The biggest criticism I'm hearing locally of the AC series is that Larry Ellison is trying to turn yacht racing into a made-for-TV NASCAR type of event, where everyone stays tune to watch for the crashes.

Here in SF bay, 20 knots is a light day during the summer season. A race committee that would cancel a race in such conditions would be laughed at, and the AC committee is currently being ridiculed by local sailors.

If the TNZ skipper wasn't sandbagging in the first LV race then he needs to have his head examined. The Italians had already dropped out of the race because they couldn't control their dagger boards. Why would anyone run an unstable (and easily broken) boat at full speed in a race he's already won? Sorry, it just doesn't wash.

The main reason you're not seeing tacking duels is that the boats are rarely close enough for the lead boat to provide dirty air. In the first race between TNZ and the Italians during the first round, the delta at the start line was a full minute. That's the start line, for goodness sake. Of a match race.
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Old 19-08-2013, 18:22   #124
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Re: Twenty Knots

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(...) hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on this stupid **** blows my mind.(...)
These hundreds of millions of bucks have been transferred from pockets of dirty rich sponsors (private companies) to the pockets of boat builders, sailors, shore teams ... Wealth distribution IS good.

The only money wasted is actually the money spectators paid for their tickets. They were sold tickets to the races but there has been virtually no racing. I would demand a refund.

There is no progress without making, breaking and improving. Be it sailing, auto sports or space exploration.

Do you really see no good sides to events like AC, VOR, Vendee?

And aren't they just beautiful dream machines?

b.
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Old 19-08-2013, 18:24   #125
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I think you've confused match racing with fleet racing. The AC World Series included both. The Americas Cup has been a match race ever since the NYYC deed of gift was established.
Yes, I misspoke (or whatever you do on the internet). But my point doesn't change.

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Old 19-08-2013, 18:31   #126
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by sailr69 View Post
why are you so keen on relating AC boats to F1 racing? there are all kinds of auto racing. SCCA, rally cars, all sorts of sport car racing. I am sure any of the drivers in those classes would not want to see F1 or nascar in their classes. they also watch with interest the F1 cars and cart cars. Sailors race all sorts of boats, Finns, Soling's, 420's etc. they don't want to move up to fast catamarans. what's the point? they are all relative in their boat speed. boat speed is not the only thing people like to race for. soooo, you like to watch speeding cats, so what?? nothing wrong with that. quit talking trash to us.
How exactly am I talking trash by arguing my point of view? Because it disagrees with yours, so it is trash talking?

My bringing up F1 was simply to isolate a highly technical and dangerous auto race from the others - similar to the AC races. I actually do not know much about auto racing, so maybe this isn't the best analogy.

Yes, you are correct to point out that there are many sailing race classes and types of race. Right now, the AC is fast catamarans. If you don't like fast catamarans, you have a wide range of sailing types to choose to watch. Just like auto racing.

I am not sure of your point about drivers or sailors not wanting to move into another class of vehicle or not wanting other cars in their class. I never claimed that they did.

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Old 19-08-2013, 18:50   #127
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
You need to do some fact checking. While indy cars don't race in rain, F1 usually does. Indeed, it's a major part of the sport. I'm not certain why you keep wanting to model sailboat racing under F1 racing, however, unless coming from Michigan has something to do with it. The biggest criticism I'm hearing locally of the AC series is that Larry Ellison is trying to turn yacht racing into a made-for-TV NASCAR type of event, where everyone stays tune to watch for the crashes.

Here in SF bay, 20 knots is a light day during the summer season. A race committee that would cancel a race in such conditions would be laughed at, and the AC committee is currently being ridiculed by local sailors.

If the TNZ skipper wasn't sandbagging in the first LV race then he needs to have his head examined. The Italians had already dropped out of the race because they couldn't control their dagger boards. Why would anyone run an unstable (and easily broken) boat at full speed in a race he's already won? Sorry, it just doesn't wash.

The main reason you're not seeing tacking duels is that the boats are rarely close enough for the lead boat to provide dirty air. In the first race between TNZ and the Italians during the first round, the delta at the start line was a full minute. That's the start line, for goodness sake. Of a match race.

OK, Indy cars then. You seem to like to mire this in inconsequential details to avoid the actual points being made.

I actually have little knowledge of auto racing - certainly much more knowledge in sail racing. I was attempting to draw analogies across another sport at the top-tier level of equipment and athletes. I don't mean to model AC racing to F1, I was simply searching for an adequate analogy.

Again, these boats can't be sandbagged in the way you are thinking. They must be sailed on their foils downwind, which translates into speed and the need for precise maneuvering. They can be sandbagged upwind, and if you watched the race, you would have seen that they did overstate all their laylines to cut the number of tacks and dogged a bit by feathering their wing on that leg. They were also overstating their laylines downwind to avoid more jibing. If you took the time to understand these boats, it would all wash with you.

On the first round (am assuming you mean the races several weeks ago), the Italians had not fully gained control or competence of their boat. They only got on foil for the first time just before the race. They have been the weakest team, and TNZ the strongest.

In the current racing of the two, the start deltas were a couple of seconds - less than a boat length. And they spent much time in dirty air, which was exquisitely explained with computer graphics on TV. Besides, "dirty air" is not as much of a factor with these boats as with slow ones - the dirty part is way to leeward and these boats can accelerate around it quite quickly. The old thinking doesn't apply here.

I don't understand why you pick and choose isolated and unrelated data points in your arguments.

Yes, Ellison is trying to turn this into a Nascar-like event. He wants TV coverage, an exciting race accessible to common people, close interactions with crews and audiences, an easily understood format, etc.

More power to him. Nobody understands or cares about the old AC anymore (present company excepted, of course).

I am tired of arguing the windspeed thing. 20kts was also an upper limit on several past AC mono races, and 20kts is only an arbitrary limit here now due to some safety concerns. It will be different later on.

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Old 19-08-2013, 18:58   #128
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Wot... same boats but 75ft instead of 45ft.... logic states they'll go a bit faster.... if I recall from a conversation in Cascais... they had to stay within the same parameters... the smaller boats were for the heats only.
Look, I generally respect your knowledge, but I don't even know how to respond to this.

The same boats, only 30ft longer? And a completely different design? And without foils? And without a wingsail? And with completely different control systems?

I don't know what boats you are describing, but suspect they are either the Extreme 40's or maybe possibly the AC45's (which also weren't around a couple years ago, but perhaps your time is inaccurate).

Neither of those boats have any relationship to the AC72's. The Extreme 40 none at all, but the AC72's do have a wing sail.

As for being bored while steering, one look at TV or Utube coverage will show you those skippers are anything but bored when sailing those boats.

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Old 19-08-2013, 19:01   #129
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Re: Twenty Knots

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The only money wasted is actually the money spectators paid for their tickets. They were sold tickets to the races but there has been virtually no racing. I would demand a refund..
I agree with this - it is truly the tragedy here, along with the hit the city is taking. However, it really isn't the boats or race format's fault. The problems are teething problems that have occurred in getting many sport changes off the ground.

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Old 19-08-2013, 19:15   #130
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Re: Twenty Knots

A car built for racing can generally make it to the corner store in the rain. Maybe it isn't ideal to zoom around the raceway at full speed, but it can still function safely under most conditions. These boats appear to be deathtraps that can't make it across a bay without a fragile component being destroyed. If they can't handle less than idyllic conditions without being a serious safety risk then regulations need to be tightened up. If wheels began constantly flying off of F1 cars with no cause and killing people I'd guess (hope) that it would be looked into and some changes made.
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Old 19-08-2013, 19:24   #131
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Re: Twenty Knots

With my 50 ft ketch I never reef, just drop the main in anything over 25 and sail with jib and mizzen. Over 30 I roll up the jib and sail with the staysail and mizzen.
With my cat I don't reef until 25 and still carry a full jib.
With my Starboat I never reef, just a lot more upper backstay in anything over 20 and just hope I can get those jibes down so I don't break a rig! There, now I have stuck with the OP but more importantly!!
I really don't care what kind of boats race in the america's cup but jeez how about a race that actually represents the country. And please don't tell me that's what the olympics are for! If you represent america then you should be american. If american sailors are not good enough to be competitive in the AC "worlds" so be it. This event should be renamed the Ellison Worlds. Because of this I respect New Zealand tremendously and the Italians for that matter. For that point alone Ellison is buying the america's cup before you even enter in the costs.
I will say that watching yacht racing can sometimes be boring as opposed to actually participating, but these sailing behemoths are quite spectacular.
However it would be better for the sport if 10-15 AC45's were going around the course, each with only their own countrymen/women aboard.
It is time for a change, our sport deserves it. Just look at the lack of spectators.
I predict New Zealand will win and when they do maybe they will approach the next cup differently, then the French will beat them
Can you imagine the crowds in France for the America's Cup?
I believe they had 150,000 spectators for the start of the Vendee.
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Old 20-08-2013, 07:02   #132
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pirate Re: Twenty Knots

I take it then you don't remember Oracle's dramatic staged pitch pole because the AC was not getting the attention the sponsor's felt it deserved....
I spent 3 days in Cascais watching a non-event... then left coz of the boredom factor... tho' I will admit I met some nice Aussies and Kiwis who made up 80+% of the crews... sail hard.. play hard..
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Old 21-08-2013, 14:46   #133
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Re: Twenty Knots

AC boats have, for a long time, been built to suit what are considered to be the normal conditions for the venue they race in. Build them to suit heavier conditions, and you won't win, it's as simple as that. This applied to the 12m boats just as much as the current ones.



To compare these boats to cruising boats is just idiocy.

BTW, Americas most popular form of motorsport, NASCAR, which are supposedly based on production road cars, (or used to be) doesn't race in the rain.
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Old 21-08-2013, 14:57   #134
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Bash is wondering how cruisers deal with true wind speeds of 20 knots. Throw in a reef? Put up the blade? Go jib and jigger?

Out on SF Bay this afternoon it's blowing 20 knots, AND THEY JUST CANCELLED THE AMERICAS CUP RACE!!!!!!!

Sheesh. Too much wind to race. $100,000,000 sailboats can't handle 20 knots?

Embarrassing.

It's good they realize they have a problem with the boat design.
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Old 22-08-2013, 15:48   #135
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Re: Twenty Knots

I'm as patriotic as the next guy but I gotta tell you, after watching the LVC finals (and all the semi-finals), I'm ready to root for New Zealand to win it all because I think they would choose a more "traditional" platform were the Cup races held on the open ocean down there next time around.

There is nothing about these boats or the way they race (aside from the start sequence) that I can relate to. They should change the name from The America's Cup to Ellison's Folly - that would make more sense to me. But then again, I'm an Old Frog.
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