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Old 19-08-2013, 14:57   #91
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
The average person doesn't even know there IS a sailboat race.
I think these boats are awesome, but I could care less who wins,
the money spent is just stupid. Most racing is just stupid.
I was watching NHRA top fuel yesterday for a bit, even being a drag racer,
I don't get why people go to watch those 3.8 second races,
although they are awesome 'cars'. Check out this video, there is even a OZzy on there..
This may be the best post on this yet. It fully describes and encompasses everything about racing of anything anywhere.

Mark
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Old 19-08-2013, 14:59   #92
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Mark

never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Probably good advice here. Thanks!

I have been stuck on a computer doing other things all day.

Mark
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:02   #93
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Back to the OP!!!

We have what we call our April to September single reef in the main with an 85% jib. Works just great for our boat. Second reef when out in the ocen for that windspeed.

20 knots is a light afternoon breeze for us here. For my friends with the same boat back east, they'd probably think it was too windy.

I
Exactly the setup I use.

I did one long port tack from the west end of the bay bridge yesterday, right over past the east end of the racecourse, then around treasure island. I'd call it a particularly benign day for the slot, 20 kts of wind, hardly any chop, warm, sunny, and the boat was really flying. One of the best bits of sailing I remember.

It never occurred to me that the race would be cancelled in such perfect conditions.

I think the problem is not solely that the boats have a wind speed limit of 20 kts, it is that 20 kts is lower than the average wind speed for that area at this time of year. The boats are not suited to the locale they are operating in.
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:06   #94
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Re: Twenty Knots

You are correct for the current boats, but the original design was for these conditions. However, the original design did not expect the ability to foil and reach higher speeds.

As I have stated, these boats are a bit too large for this race in this locale. They weren't designed that way originally, but they ended up that way in practice.

The same has happened in past AC venues.

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Old 19-08-2013, 15:08   #95
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Re: Twenty Knots

Instead of a wind speed limit, why don't they restrict sail (wing) area?
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:11   #96
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Re: Twenty Knots

If they understood the foiling and speed capability at design time, I think they would have lowered the wing area. It was too late after the fact.

And you would still have a wind speed limit - just that it would be a bit higher than 20kts.

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Old 19-08-2013, 15:17   #97
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Double reefed main and jib rolled to be equivalent of 90-100%. If the sea state is ugly, the jib may get reduced and I deal with the unbalanced rig.


IMHO, this is no longer The Cup. When they allowed vessels to be transported to the race versus sailed there, the stage was set for these high-tech boats.

In automobile road racing they have a class of cars that are basically race prepared stock vehicles. I would love to see a sailboat variant of that. Only boats that have had "X" units sold in the past year or that are available could race. No PHRF, designers build an 8 or 10 or 12 meter yacht with the same sail configuration that is retailed and race it. But hey what do I know?
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:28   #98
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Mark.

You make some very good points however I find it hard to believe that the designers who should understand how the wing works didn't think that the foils underwater would have some effect. Aren't they essentially another wing?

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Old 19-08-2013, 15:49   #99
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Re: Twenty Knots

The foils weren't part of the original design. Foils that fit the rules were thought to produce more drag than lift, so wouldn't be competitive across a course. After the boats were built, designers came up with a workable foil and the crew came up with ways to jibe them without coming off foil. This part of the boat caught everyone by surprise and off-guard.

You need to give the crews a lot of credit there. It is a very difficult maneuver, and the entire success of the foils in a race is due to the ability to jibe on them.

Again, these boats are exploring new grounds that weren't originally envisaged. The fact that these discoveries happened so close to race time is why the perceptions here exist.

If they were sailing 50kts in 25kt winds and not breaking down, I think the only valid complaint would be "I don't like that type of racing" - which is a valid personal preference.

"The Cup" of bringing boats in on their own bottom is LONG past. And the rule that they be brought to race on their own bottoms wasn't even part of the original rules and was put in 35 years later to make it more difficult for boats from outside the US to win (the NYYC rule).

I fail to see how this would make for more interesting racing. In this case, Oracle could have their present boat while New Zealand would be forced to build one that could sail to San Fran against the wind and currents and in tough conditions that would not be seen in the actual race.

I would rather see a return to boats campaigned and crewed by nationals.

And I never want the highest end of the sport to be cruising-type boats. Entire other classes and races are available for those.

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Old 19-08-2013, 15:52   #100
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Capt Rottnest View Post
If AC went back to slow heavy boats no one would watch it. Its good to see cats performing at their true potential, considering they used to be banned. Now they are actually flying. Amazing stuff.
I don't know about that. I quit paying any attention to AC when the cats came around. Speed boats without any throttle control. Can't or won't sail in 20kts?

Bring back the J class!!!
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:56   #101
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Re: Twenty Knots

The J-class has been brought back and is racing. Just not in the America's Cup. Hardly anyone watches them.

BTW, they got rid of the J-class because of cost.

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Old 19-08-2013, 16:11   #102
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Re: Twenty Knots

Why don't they restrict price, say each country gets a used West Sail 32 for under 100k...no electronics allowed...put everyone on an even field.
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Old 19-08-2013, 16:13   #103
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Re: Twenty Knots

Do you realise how long a race would take? The sailing season is only 6 months long, you know....
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Old 19-08-2013, 16:14   #104
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Re: Twenty Knots

That would make even Cruiser's Forum more boring...

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Old 19-08-2013, 16:25   #105
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
BTW, is all the negativity due to these being catamarans? If they were mono's reaching these speeds (possibly also on foils like moths, etc) with the same penalty rule set and short courses and not using spinnakers, etc, would the opinions be different?
Mark
The difference for me isn't so much monos vs. multis (although I prefer monos). It's the lack of tacking duels, headsail switches, and spinnaker sets.

Looks to me like the boat that wins the start and/or doesn't break down wins the race.
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