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Old 19-08-2013, 10:54   #61
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Re: Twenty Knots

So now we have great big cats that foil....we also have the Flying Hawaiian..... Neither seem to meet with the approval of our group here. There must be a place and a race for the big 75 footers but let's not call it the America's Cup. When the America's Cup is over there should be grand yachts remaining that grace marina's and harbours the world over.....bring back J boats...bring back schooners...bring back Bluenose!

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Old 19-08-2013, 11:04   #62
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Re: Twenty Knots

I just think the race should be about who can prevail in reasonable sailing conditions. 20 knots is perfect in many peoples minds.
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Old 19-08-2013, 11:13   #63
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
The only reason the 12s had close competition was that they had decades of development refining the boats until they were near identical in speed. Every time they change what boats they're going to have one boat will be clearly stomping the others until they have had enough races to refine the boats again.
The current AC72's probably have the most stringent and tight box rule yet, so they don't differ by much at all. Much less than any other previous AC boat rule.

The reason why 3 minute deltas are obtained is because these boats are sailing at 40-50kts, not 8-12kts. Any small error is magnified dramatically and instantly. And it is easy for a boat 3 minutes behind to catch up either by sailing a bit faster or the other boat making a small error.

That was never true in the old boats - a 3 minute delta was almost a death knell.

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Old 19-08-2013, 11:18   #64
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I just think the race should be about who can prevail in reasonable sailing conditions. 20 knots is perfect in many peoples minds.
Well, the race is called at 18.5 kts, and that is a very conservative speed put in place because of a bad accident. The boats themselves can handle higher speeds.

The flip side is that these boats will still be sailing fast and be exciting in 8-10kt winds!

Other AC boats and races had similar wind limits.

Again, "reasonable" anything is simply difficult to define. The southern ocean racers are racing in conditions and timeframes that you would probably call "unreasonable" for your boat. Why is this any different?

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Old 19-08-2013, 11:20   #65
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Re: Twenty Knots

Just took a look at the tides and currents for my up coming trip....gonna need 20kts to get to some of the spots I want to go with these big tides, the current will be most adverse during daylight....will come home fast though.
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Old 19-08-2013, 11:25   #66
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Re: Twenty Knots

BTW, the wind limit for the race isn't absolute - it is relative taking current into account. Yesterday, with the strong 2.5kt current, the wind speed was set at 18.5kts. It could be higher with less current.

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Old 19-08-2013, 11:28   #67
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I just think the race should be about who can prevail in reasonable sailing conditions. 20 knots is perfect in many peoples minds.
Check back for the next Americas Cup. The winner this year may select a monohull next time for the race boat.

Also, I've seen several races cancelled when they were racing monohulls.
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Old 19-08-2013, 11:58   #68
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Re: Twenty Knots

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But when there are only two competitors and the one usually winning is the one that doesn't break during or before the race, and you call that exciting? Isn't the common reaction of spectators "what's wrong with these boats"?
The Australian Team broke a monohull in half and it sank in about a minute in the 1995 Americas Cup so that is nothing new. These guys have always built the AC Boats on the edge of the envelope.

And it just so happens that it was "gusting" to 20 knots!

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Old 19-08-2013, 12:09   #69
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Sheesh. Too much wind to race. $100,000,000 sailboats can't handle 20 knots?

Embarrassing.
Another fella though a race "should be about who can prevail in reasonable sailing conditions."

Do they race Formula 1 in the snow or Indy cars in the rain? I don't understand the point at all, unless it is that we would rather they ran rally cars at Indy, just in case the weather turned. For my part, when I want to watch rally cars I do, without blaming the Indy League for making different choises. It's their money.

Horses for courses. This is a course for a specific catagory of fast boats.

-----

So few of us are qualified to safely pilot the new boats I feel coments on "seamanship" are equally embarasing. I'm pretty sure I could grab some buddies and sail a 12 meter in some fashion, but these boats are a whole new level, as certain performance monohulls can be also. Over-sized moths could be a hoot.
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Old 19-08-2013, 12:14   #70
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Re: Twenty Knots

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slow heavy boats? all sailboats are slow heavy boats. displacement hulls! the current AC boats are a far cry from sailboats. crew wears crash helmets, oxygen bottles for underwater survival. foils to lift the boats from the water. after the starts, end of racing. no need for racing rules with these guys. I say get back to yacht racing and start a new cup for these cats, if they still want to race them in the future. Maybe a few new race fans but I for one are bored after watching one race. my thoughts for what it's worth.
Totally agree
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Old 19-08-2013, 12:16   #71
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Re: Twenty Knots

Do they have close tacking duels with the cats?

I vote they bring back the J boats

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Old 19-08-2013, 12:18   #72
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
The Australian Team broke a monohull in half and it sank in about a minute in the 1995 Americas Cup so that is nothing new. These guys have always built the AC Boats on the edge of the envelope.

And it just so happens that it was "gusting" to 20 knots!
What is more humorous is that their calculated sinking speed through the water was greater than their actual sailing speed over water!

On the same day, France demasted and both US boats had significant gear damage, as well as both losing their mainsails.

There was a lot of complaints that those boats should not have been out in 20kts of wind, and calls for the wind limits to be lowered.

From a NYT article:
"We advised the Race Committee that the conditions were unfit for these boats," Mr. Bertrand said, "as did Team New Zealand and the French."

Also:
"Also likely to be discussed will be the seaworthiness of the new breed of America's Cup yachts. To make them as light as possible, they are built with composite materials such as carbon fiber. Ken McAlpine, an event measurer who is responsible for making sure the yachts conform to certain design restrictions, said today that there are lower limits for how thick the carbon fiber skin must be. But there are no rules on how substantial the boat's interior framing is.

Mr. Bertrand conceded that his team and the others push the envelope on yacht design. "We always push to make the boats lighter for higher performance," he said. "So when we sail in these conditions, they are totally stressed out."


The more things change...

Earlier in the campaign, France also lost a boat when the bulb keel broke off their boat.

But don't confuse people's closed minds and need for unexamined beliefs with facts. Anything they don't understand is bad and history is what they selectively remember.

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Old 19-08-2013, 12:21   #73
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post

I vote they bring back the J boats
Your post shows that they have - so that is covered. Just not in the AC race.

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Old 19-08-2013, 12:26   #74
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Re: Twenty Knots

No ones as discussed the massive loss in revenue etc to the whole SF Bay because of this idiotic event.
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Old 19-08-2013, 12:34   #75
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Re: Twenty Knots

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No ones as discussed the massive loss in revenue etc to the whole SF Bay because of this idiotic event.
That is very unfortunate, but I wouldn't say it was because the event was "idiotic". Again, much teething pains here, but the blame is being misplaced because of people's biases.

Other events have had similar problems. I'm in Baltimore right now, where they have a grand prix that socked the city good the first year for similar reasons as this, but they worked out the problems in subsequent years.

I'm from Michigan, and remember the same happening to the Detroit grand prix.

BTW, this thread was about sailing in 20kts of wind, not the financial problems with the event city.

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