Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-08-2013, 09:38   #46
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Again, what is yacht racing - schooners? Nobody races them anymore. J-boats? Classic enthusiasts only. 12 meters? Yawn, and nobody races them anymore. Open 70's? Also gone.

Note the technology progression there, and also note that there was much consternation and heavy complaining each time the boats changed.

What is a "real" yacht race? I bet none of the current sailboat racing meets your criteria anymore.

Mark
It's a classic contrast between type A personalities and the rest of us. Sail boat racing in the past was as much about lovely boats as it was winning. The loveliness has gone out of racing in favour of win at all costs. The machine and speed usurps what appeals to the eye, heart and soul.
__________________

__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:42   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
This morning's newspaper reports the Italians beat the New Zealanders yesterday (Sunday) because the Kiwi's battery pack failed, crippling the hydraulic system operating the rake of the daggerboards and the shape of the sail.

(This was Sunday's first race. The second race that day was cancelled.)

Skipper Max Sirena of the Luna Rossa: "These boats are really fragile and need a lot of maintenance." In Saturday's race, his boat's daggerboard delaminated and broke away from the holding pin.
It wasn't the battery pack that failed, but it was a problem with the electrical system. The boat was repaired quickly between races and was ready to go for the (canceled) second race.

Keep in mind that the day earlier, that boat had a spectacular nosedive - going from 40kts to 0kts instantly. Not out of the question to believe that a connection could have worked loose. It was repaired in less than 15 minutes, so I don't think you can hang your derision on that one.

Race cars pull into the pits all the time for damage repair. They also lose races because of failing components.

F1 cars are designed for single race events only - after which they are completely broken down, refurbished and rebuilt. Some engines are good only for one race.

Those cars are fragile and need a lot of maintenance, but it is the price of pushing the envelope at the vanguard of the sport.

Again, the learning curve of these boats are being played out in public. I don't think that was the plan, but capabilities of these boats out-stripped the design expectations.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:44   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Twenty Knots

Chart plotter does that, Gives you max speed while cruising, Just change your compass bearing a few degrees each way, Till you get max speed on the sails you have up, or, Maximum speed for the conditions,

The difference between Cruising and Racing,

Cruising, you have to get your boat there in one piece, and usually on your own, Breaking some thing, Is not an option, So you keep the speed down, I do any way,

Racing, If you break some thing, Your back up boat or helicopter will look after you,

14 knots boat speed on my Gemini, Its flying,

I need 3 knots to move, 5 Knots wind, gives me 3 knots speed,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:44   #49
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
It's a classic contrast between type A personalities and the rest of us. Sail boat racing in the past was as much about lovely boats as it was winning. The loveliness has gone out of racing in favour of win at all costs. The machine and speed usurps what appeals to the eye, heart and soul.
Well I am definitely NOT a type A personality, but I get bored to tears watching 12 meters race. And I always found those to be particularly ugly boats.

How do you explain F1 racing? Or racing of any other vanguard species?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:46   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: michigan
Boat: CORBIN 39
Posts: 301
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Again, what is yacht racing - schooners? Nobody races them anymore. J-boats? Classic enthusiasts only. 12 meters? Yawn, and nobody races them anymore. Open 70's? Also gone.

Note the technology progression there, and also note that there was much consternation and heavy complaining each time the boats changed.

What is a "real" yacht race? I bet none of the current sailboat racing meets your criteria anymore.

Mark
hold on mate, I have been racing various boats both one design and handicap classes for over forty years. racing a sailboat is a lot more then going fast. no need to go into that however ( no time to explain). ever raced in a drifter? race strategy, tactics , sail set, trimming, sail changes, current, wave direction, wind shifts, helmsmanship. that my friend is what yacht racing used to be and I for one like it that way. 4 - 12 knot boat speed is what sailboats do. 40 knot + boat speed is fine but that is what sailboats do to set speed records. not yacht racing
__________________
sailr69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:47   #51
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
actually, I can't.

Especially if I'm sailing for thousands of miles, I want to sail efficiently: to possibly avoid inclement weather, save time, save food, save water, less chafe/wear on the boat, less time using the engine, stuff like that. No?
LOLOL.... don't sail with me then... on crossings its not unusual for me to heave to and have a weekend off just lolling about... a few beers... some serious food... even a swim...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:53   #52
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
LOLOL.... don't sail with me then... on crossings its not unusual for me to heave to and have a weekend off just lolling about... a few beers... some serious food... even a swim...
Swim? In the ocean, with nobody to assist if you get a cramp? You wear a life jacket & tether yourself to the boat? I'll stay on the boat mainly because there's no one else aboard to help if for some reason I can't get back on board myself.

But yeah, I'm never in a big hurry either. Besides, my boat's slow enough in fourth gear that there is no such thing as hurry.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:54   #53
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Twenty knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
No, you are wrong on that cost. The boats themselves cost 8-10 million. The campaign cost estimates are around 100 million, but that also includes the AC45 boat and campaign that preceded the AC72's - not to mention two AC72's, not one. Oh, also the entire research program and back room support that goes on.
It's been reported that it cost Oracle $8 million just to replace the wing that was destroyed.

Oracle spent more that $200 million on its losing effort in Valencia, when it lost 5-0 to TNZ. That was back in 2010. It's being estimated that they will spend five times as much in the cup defense this year.

My yacht club had offered to host the Korean team for this year's event. They had already paid the $250,000 entry fee, had put together an impressive organization, had contracted crew (most of whom were Kiwis), and had come in 5th place in the AC World Series last summer. They dropped out specifically because they could not afford to build an AC 72 boat. Same thing happened to the Chinese, Spanish and Swiss teams.

New Zealand falters as America's Cup round continues

The new Americas Cup isn't about sailing, it's about money. Larry Ellison decided that it needed to be exciting enough to lure in the NASCAR crowd who found sailing boring.

Yeah, I've been watching these boats for months, not on television but out on the water. They are stupid boats, plain and simple. It hasn't been until the past month that crews were able to jibe them without coming to a complete stop. They're so fundamentally unsafe that the coast guard threatened to revoke their race permit unless they put in the 18.7 knot wind limit. Larry E. had boasted that these same boats would race in any wind up to 33 knots true! Huh? Lately, they've been practicing in the mornings when the wind is light, and they're put away by noon because it's too breezy. Meanwhile, those of us sailing real boats generally wait until noon to head out to sail.

Here's what you don't see on TV that we see out on the water. Even to go out and practice, these boats each have half a dozen following boats. There's a rescue boat, a boat full of mechanics who can repair things in between races, et cetera.

Someone made the argument that if we don't like the races we don't have to watch them. I guess that's a valid argument if you live in Kansas and do most of your sailing on the internet. Here in SF bay, however, they're shutting down the central bay for months, most of the time to host "races" where only one boat was running.

Folks, there hasn't yet been a race between two AC 72s where the finishing delta was less than three minutes, and the closest delta was due to the lead boat sandbagging. How is that exciting?

As far as the argument that all sails are essentially wings, you're missing a few steps of technology here. The wings on an AC 72 are taken down by cranes and night and stored in a hangar where they'll be repaired through the night to get ready for tomorrow's race. The teams are now complaining that it's too hard on the boats to have them compete in two races per day. They need to go through the whole maintenance cycle after each race, according to some.

Yeah. I'll take the old 12 meters any day. Back then, it was still about the skill of the sailors, and the boats were secondary. Now it's all about the boats.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:55   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailr69 View Post
hold on mate, I have been racing various boats both one design and handicap classes for over forty years. racing a sailboat is a lot more then going fast. no need to go into that however ( no time to explain). ever raced in a drifter? race strategy, tactics , sail set, trimming, sail changes, current, wave direction, wind shifts, helmsmanship. that my friend is what yacht racing used to be and I for one like it that way. 4 - 12 knot boat speed is what sailboats do. 40 knot + boat speed is fine but that is what sailboats do to set speed records. not yacht racing
Thank you, you made my point.

I hope never to see an America's Cup race where the boats are sitting in drifters or limited by design to 4-12 kts.

Seems like you need explanation on racing fast boats. I can assure you that the strategies and tactics are not only more intimate and subtle, but the boat control, trimming, helmsmanship, current, wave direction, etc has far more effect than for boats going 6kts.

BTW, I have 43 years of racing under me. I do understand what you didn't have time to explain. I also have been very close to the types boats under discussion here, have been sailing on boats doing 35kts and understand them and their subtleties too.

It is just fine to enjoy the type of racing you enjoy. I have nothing against that and enjoy some beer can racing myself. I only mean to counter the negativity about racing at the highest end of the sport. It isn't meant to translate down to cruising boats or even club racing boats.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 09:58   #55
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Race cars pull into the pits all the time for damage repair. They also lose races because of failing components.
But when there are only two competitors and the one usually winning is the one that doesn't break during or before the race, and you call that exciting? Isn't the common reaction of spectators "what's wrong with these boats"?
__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 10:12   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: Twenty Knots

Yeah, when Iheard it was going to be in SF I thought... cool... wind for a change.... then they went to these terribly delicate boats. It's ridiculous... cancel a race due to 20 knots? you're kidding. Run the race, let the guy who built the strong boat win!
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 10:20   #57
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
It's been reported that it cost Oracle $8 million just to replace the wing that was destroyed.

Oracle spent more that $200 million on its losing effort in Valencia, when it lost 5-0 to TNZ. That was back in 2010. It's being estimated that they will spend five times as much in the cup defense this year.

My yacht club had offered to host the Korean team for this year's event. They had already paid the $250,000 entry fee, had put together an impressive organization, had contracted crew, and had come in 5th place in the AC World Series last summer. They dropped out specifically because they could not afford to build an AC 72 boat. Same thing happened to the Chinese, Spanish and Swiss teams.

New Zealand falters as America's Cup round continues

The new Americas Cup isn't about sailing, it's about money. Larry Ellison decided that it needed to be exciting enough to lure in the NASCAR crowd who found sailing boring.

Yeah, I've been watching these boats for months, not on television but out on the water. They are stupid boats, plain and simple. It hasn't been until the past month that crews were able to jibe them without coming to a complete stop. They're so fundamentally unsafe that the coast guard threatened to revoke their race permit unless they put in the 18.7 knot wind limit. Larry E. had boasted that these same boats would race in any wind up to 33 knots true! Huh? Lately, they've been practicing in the mornings when the wind is light, and they're put away by noon because it's too breezy. Meanwhile, those of us sailing real boats generally wait until noon to head out to sail.

Here's what you don't see on TV that we see out on the water. Even to go out and practice, these boats each have half a dozen following boats. There's a rescue boat, a boat full of mechanics who can repair things in between races, et cetera.

Someone made the argument that if we don't like the races we don't have to watch them. I guess that's a valid argument if you live in Kansas and do most of your sailing on the internet. Here in SF bay, however, they're shutting down the central bay for months, most of the time to host "races" where only one boat was running.

Folks, there hasn't yet been a race between two AC 72s where the finishing delta was less than three minutes, and the closest delta was due to the lead boat sandbagging. How is that exciting?

As far as the argument that all sails are essentially wings, you're missing a few steps of technology here. The wings on an AC 72 are taken down by cranes and night and stored in a hangar where they'll be repaired through night to get ready for tomorrow's race. The teams are now complaining that it's two hard on the boats to have them compete in two races per day. They need to go through the whole maintenance cycle after each race, according to some.

Yeah. I'll take the old 12 meters any day. Back then, it was still about the skill of the sailors, and the boats were secondary. Now it's all about the boats.
I haven't been watching them on TV - I have been out sailing on the bay when they are racing and practicing. The bay is not closed. The race course is closed during the actual race, but that is a small area. There is no problem sailing from the south bay out the golden gate. This is no different than any other boat race of any type of boat.

You will simply have to provide me with some type of proof that these boats cost 100 million just for the boat. I know this is wrong.

The jibing comment shows you do not understand these boats, or their development. The were not originally expected to foil and jibes were no problem. Once the crews discovered how to foil them, they needed to learn how to do it routinely. This requires exquisite precision and, yes, if they blow it, the boat stops dead. This doesn't make the boats "stupid".

I agree that they are fundamentally unsafe. In your hands (and mine), but that is what the vanguard of a sport is about. I already made the point about windspeed. When Ellison was discussing a boat at 33kt winds, he wasn't discussing the current foiling boats at 40-50kts. It is all about forces, not windspeed. I bet you would never take your boat out in wind speeds that produce the force on it that these boat see.

The CG limits are debatable and this type of thing will be settled over time.

I remember lots of AC races of old with larger deltas than 3 minutes. And they were like watching paint dry.

Unfortunately, boat races do not lend themselves to pits and pit crews like car races. The equivalent must be out on the water with the boats. And they are seen on TV - they are not a "dirty secret".

Those are wings, regardless of what you think. The fact that they are brought down at night, and any repairs made, doesn't seem relevant at all. Old time AC boats were also pulled out of the water and de-rigged every night and repairs made as necessary.

F1 cars have their engines completely rebuilt between races. Some have entirely new engines installed between races. And they aren't expected to race two races a day, multiple days in a row. How is that sport different?

Your last comment cements the fact you do not understand what you are talking about. Those sailors are among the most skilled in the sport. The skill needed to simply keep those boats upright, let alone actually race them, is far more than that required for a 12 meter boat/race. The strategies and tactics necessary are more than those required for 12 meters. The physical strength and training of the crew is far more. EVERYTHING is far more.

Now, the boats and sailor are both primary. Just like F1 racing.

I will agree with you, however, that a lot of attention is being paid to the boats themselves. This is because the teething pains are being played out in real time publicly for the reasons I stated earlier. This is a disservice to the athletes on them, but it is also something that will become a non-issue in the future as the design and development catches up.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 10:21   #58
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Twenty Knots

For those that wish for the good old days or 12s or IACC, fine if you like 12s and not cats your personal choice, but to say they're better or more like real boats is wrong.

IACC had a 25 knot limit, remember the boat that folded up in half and sank.

12 meters had to be designed for the wind and wave conditions for the event. A 12 designed for the light winds and small waves of Newport wouldn't have a chance in the rough conditions in New Zealand. How does custom designing a boat for local wind and wave conditions have anything to do with real world boats?


The only reason the 12s had close competition was that they had decades of development refining the boats until they were near identical in speed. Every time they change what boats they're going to have one boat will be clearly stomping the others until they have had enough races to refine the boats again.
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 10:23   #59
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
But when there are only two competitors and the one usually winning is the one that doesn't break during or before the race, and you call that exciting? Isn't the common reaction of spectators "what's wrong with these boats"?
I'm not disagreeing with you about the unfortunate circumstances here. I made the argument that these boats were a bit big and untested. That wasn't the original plan, but the boat's capabilities outstripped the design expectations and the teething pains are being played out publicly because of the races.

This will be a non-issue in time. Right now, it is frustrating to have a boat win because the other broke. It is not unprecedented, however.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 10:28   #60
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yeah, when Iheard it was going to be in SF I thought... cool... wind for a change.... then they went to these terribly delicate boats. It's ridiculous... cancel a race due to 20 knots? you're kidding. Run the race, let the guy who built the strong boat win!
You need to understand that it is the forces on a boat, not the wind speed, that determines the ability to race. At 20kts wind and 40-50kt boat speed, those forces are equivalent to full storm winds on your boat.

Most previous AC boats had wind limits only slightly higher than these. And I am happy we aren't watching full-keeled heavy double enders racing in 30kts.

The CG put the limits on the boats due to a bad accident that occurred while testing the limits of the boats. In my opinion, this was not a bad decision at this time in the boat's development. The boats themselves, however, ARE designed for higher than 18kts.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
knot, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Death of the Ketch ? europaflyer Monohull Sailboats 496 23-12-2015 13:17
Six Year Refit . . . Is 3.5 Knots Under Power Too Slow ? akio.kanemoto Propellers & Drive Systems 50 20-08-2015 22:12
Twenty Boats Sunk or Damaged in Chicago Harbor Due to High Winds teneicm General Sailing Forum 1 26-10-2011 04:52
Cairns to Perth Part 1 Bartlettsrise Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 1 11-09-2011 00:38



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.