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Old 15-09-2013, 14:35   #481
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Re: Twenty Knots

Ouch!

Has Team Oracle USA learned to tack, and found a little more boat speed?
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:37   #482
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Re: Twenty Knots

I'm thinking the 72s like the wind..............the higher the better.
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:48   #483
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All credit to Oracle they sailed a blardy great race and they seemed to have better boat speed as well. I reckon we now have a boat race.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:49   #484
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Re: Twenty Knots

Yep, they have the boat speed and have learned to tack.

(But) I do question that last call by the tactician on race 2..

Whatever, it's still been fun to watch. Hopefully now we can forget about this 20 knots and reefing BS. These boats are several hundred times more efficient than the best monohull it's pathetic.
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:24   #485
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Re: Sail better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman View Post
BUT NOBODY stopped or even paused the madness when foiling was introduced by wiggle or whatever means and a Cat with a 40 m wing even without foils does not sound "reasonable" in SF Bay summer winds......San Diego ( no offense ) maybe.

Wind Limits - the "reasoanble" non foiling AC45s had an 18 kt wind limit in the Red Bull series cancelling the final double point race with boats zig zagging all over the place.

AC45s wing is approx 1.5 x boat length
AC72s wing is almost 2x boat length

When decisions are made to sail these boats on SF Bay, on a bath tub course, with only 1 upwind / 2 downwind legs, with 2.5 crashes +1 death, geared for TV/ non-sailors and the resulting wind limits that stop races from starting or continuing mid-race AC mgt deserve / earned every criticism.

AC is the pinnacle of professional sailing that should showcase the sport (in whatever boat) and it's sailors against mother nature. If recreational sailors are safely sailing away from a cancelled AC race something is truly wrong.

This is all ebbing water under the bridge at this point. Let's get back to the racing - Go Kiwis
The AC45's were sailed by 19-24 yr old amateurs - almost all of them in catamarans for the first time in their life - and all of them only having very limited time on the boats they were racing prior to the race. The low wind limits were put on place on them specifically to protect those kids. This was the right call and has absolutely nothing to do with the limits those boats can handle. Previously, in the AC45 worlds, those boats were sailing in 30kt winds on short courses with no problems.

Your point about recreational sailors sailing away from a wind-cancelled professional race makes absolutely no rational sense at all. Did you even say that to yourself in your head before posting it? If those recreational sailors were seeing 60kt apparent winds, would they even be sailing? Do you really think that an AC race should be in boats that can sail in the same winds as recreational boats? Do you understand that they would be, well, recreational boats? Or Volvo ocean racers, which would be equally as bad on an AC match racing course?

Oracle did try to stop the foiling, as did other teams (thus negating your thesis). What you don't seem to grasp is the entire principle of the rules and how they are developed. Once negotiated and in place a year or more before the actual event, one cannot simply "stop" anything within the rules. Particularly if that reason occurs a month or so before the actual race. The attempt to lower the wind limits after the death caused a ferocious bruhaha that was settled only by the coast guard threatening to shut the whole event down. There is no way the teams could be forced back to the starting line building mostly new boats a month before the race.

A 72' catamaran with a wing and without foils is reasonable in SF Bay in summer winds. It is extreme, as it should be for this level of sport, but it is certainly reasonable. The boat was designed to sail at 33kts of wind - nothing wrong with that and probably even above a lot of the recreational sailor's comfort levels. How much wind do you think an AC boat should be built for?

Since the 1990's, none of the AC boats have been built to withstand what these AC72's are experiencing. They are historically some of the strongest boats campaigned in recent years.

You seem unwilling to address the point that these wind limits are the same, and in some cases higher, than those in past AC racing. Along with the point that more boat damage has been done in past AC racing than in this event. Oh yeah - you won't address the point that 5 people have died in past AC racing either. You only seem to blame these boats and this AC event.

And for those of you who miss real "traditional" boat racing with tacking duels, lead changes and close finishes - at the end of today's races, this AC72 series now leads all other America's Cup events in those categories. Historical fact.

And the series isn't even over yet.

You can hate catamarans, and hate Ellison, but you can't make up your own facts.

Mark
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:32   #486
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
These boats are several hundred times more efficient than the best monohull it's pathetic.
The VMG graphics that they brought out today were fantastic! Seeing 38* upwind angles at 30kt speeds - wow.

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Old 15-09-2013, 16:35   #487
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Wow. This getting good! To bad NBC is cutting to ads during the race. We who are watching it there missed how NZ kept the lead after the last windward mark rounding in the last race because they cut to two ads just as the boats rounded evenly. Bummer!
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:37   #488
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Re: Twenty Knots

Great stuff today. I must say these races are damn exciting now that there is real competition.
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:39   #489
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Wow. This getting good! To bad NBC is cutting to ads during the race. We who are watching it there missed how NZ kept the lead after the last windward mark rounding in the last race because they cut to two ads just as the boats rounded evenly. Bummer!
I stopped watching NBC and started YouTube. NBC should be shot for their coverage.

Not to rub salt in it, but you missed a grand mistake by Oracle that allowed NZ to walk away.

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Old 15-09-2013, 22:34   #490
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OK, now I'm interested. OTUSA showed up a little late to the party, probably too late, but at least we'll actually see a couple real races. The VMG graphic is good too, I hope they show more of it.
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Old 16-09-2013, 01:58   #491
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Re: Sail better

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The AC45's were sailed by 19-24 yr old amateurs - almost all of them in catamarans for the first time in their life - and all of them only having very limited time on the boats they were racing prior to the race. The low wind limits were put on place on them specifically to protect those kids. This was the right call and has absolutely nothing to do with the limits those boats can handle. Previously, in the AC45 worlds, those boats were sailing in 30kt winds on short courses with no problems.

Your point about recreational sailors sailing away from a wind-cancelled professional race makes absolutely no rational sense at all. Did you even say that to yourself in your head before posting it? If those recreational sailors were seeing 60kt apparent winds, would they even be sailing? Do you really think that an AC race should be in boats that can sail in the same winds as recreational boats? Do you understand that they would be, well, recreational boats? Or Volvo ocean racers, which would be equally as bad on an AC match racing course?

Oracle did try to stop the foiling, as did other teams (thus negating your thesis). What you don't seem to grasp is the entire principle of the rules and how they are developed. Once negotiated and in place a year or more before the actual event, one cannot simply "stop" anything within the rules. Particularly if that reason occurs a month or so before the actual race. The attempt to lower the wind limits after the death caused a ferocious bruhaha that was settled only by the coast guard threatening to shut the whole event down. There is no way the teams could be forced back to the starting line building mostly new boats a month before the race.

A 72' catamaran with a wing and without foils is reasonable in SF Bay in summer winds. It is extreme, as it should be for this level of sport, but it is certainly reasonable. The boat was designed to sail at 33kts of wind - nothing wrong with that and probably even above a lot of the recreational sailor's comfort levels. How much wind do you think an AC boat should be built for?

Since the 1990's, none of the AC boats have been built to withstand what these AC72's are experiencing. They are historically some of the strongest boats campaigned in recent years.

You seem unwilling to address the point that these wind limits are the same, and in some cases higher, than those in past AC racing. Along with the point that more boat damage has been done in past AC racing than in this event. Oh yeah - you won't address the point that 5 people have died in past AC racing either. You only seem to blame these boats and this AC event.

And for those of you who miss real "traditional" boat racing with tacking duels, lead changes and close finishes - at the end of today's races, this AC72 series now leads all other America's Cup events in those categories. Historical fact.

And the series isn't even over yet.

You can hate catamarans, and hate Ellison, but you can't make up your own facts.

Mark
Trouble is, the only way to hate multihulls is to make up your own facts.

Absolutely sensational racing today. Better than any monohull racing ever.
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Old 16-09-2013, 06:22   #492
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I stopped watching NBC and started YouTube. NBC should be shot for their coverage.

Not to rub salt in it, but you missed a grand mistake by Oracle that allowed NZ to walk away.

Mark
Do you mean when they approached windward marks after the beat?

Not sure it was a US team's mistake. Look on the video Kiwis sailing very high and slowing down - if Oracle tried to dial them down, Kiwis would have simply sailed into the shore side mark and tack there, living US Team in the limbo. I think if US Team had rounded the water side mark, they could have won the race.

Fantastic show. Let's hope it will remain this close and tense till the better team wins.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 16-09-2013, 06:49   #493
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Somebody can explain to me how the wing is working.

I know about drag , lift, extrados, intrados etc, and the dynamics of a wing.
What I cannot get is how the wing is in almost the same position being upwind or downwind, positioned near the center line of the boat.
I get it when the boat is speeding and when the apparent wind is stronger on the bow than the true wind on the stern, but how do you get to that speed first with the wing almost centered?
Thanks in advance for the clarification
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Old 16-09-2013, 06:54   #494
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Do you mean when they approached windward marks after the beat?
I don't know when NBC cut to commercial, but from the person's post, I thought it was on the downwind leg when Oracle did a bad dip under TNZ and gave up the race. It wasn't clear that they actually needed to dip them, but the dip was far larger and slower than they needed to do. The race went from dead even to behind 200 meters on that move.

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Old 16-09-2013, 07:05   #495
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecadi View Post
Somebody can explain to me how the wing is working.

I know about drag , lift, extrados, intrados etc, and the dynamics of a wing.
What I cannot get is how the wing is in almost the same position being upwind or downwind, positioned near the center line of the boat.
I get it when the boat is speeding and when the apparent wind is stronger on the bow than the true wind on the stern, but how do you get to that speed first with the wing almost centered?
Thanks in advance for the clarification
You pretty much understand it. The apparent wind is it. The wing does move quite a bit - if you look at the "hard" part of the netting underneath the wing, that is the extent of the wing's travel. Probably 45*. They rarely, if ever, need to use that much.

When the boats head down after turning off from a beat, the acceleration is almost instant. It is so fast, that there is a "zone of death" during this bear off where the boat speed builds so fast and the apparent wind moves forward so quickly that the boat begins to loose control. Probably the most difficult crew handling parts of the race are these bear aways.

Also, the camber of the wing can change a lot, which helps the wing gain power as the boat comes up to speed. The wing camber is trimmed more than the wing angle of attack.

So the short answer is that the boats accelerate so quickly that the apparent wind never gets around them and is always in front of them.

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