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Old 15-09-2013, 09:12   #466
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
You mean the sailing tubs? The non-foiling antique things making a meagre 4 kts? ;-)

Brother! Racing IS NOT about 'safely handling the conditions'!

;-)
b.
He forgets that the monos in previous AC races also couldn't safely handle those conditions. It was funny when the between race coverage went to past AC races and showed Conner dismasting in 17kts. One boat also SANK in similar conditions.

When asked about all of the boat breakage and danger occuring in the 1999 LV series, Conner had this to say: "Well, nothing's safe, but I think that's what [these boats] are built for"

Regarding all this nostalgia for "traditional" AC racing - here is a Dennis Conner quote made when New Zealand built the first fiberglass 12 meter: "Why would you build a plastic yacht ... unless you wanted to cheat?"

The only real differences here for some people seem to be catamarans and Ellison.

Mark
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Old 15-09-2013, 09:27   #467
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Re: Twenty Knots

I just finished reading
The Billionaire and the Mechanic: How Larry Ellison and a Car Mechanic Teamed Up to Win Sailing's Greatest Race, The America's Cup

It's a bit of a puff-piece in favor of Ellison, but when I put the book down I certainly had some respect for Ellison, his intentions, and his personal sailing ability.

Just think if it had been Steve Jobs instead of Larry Ellison doing this. Imagine how the local reactions might have been perhaps a little different.
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Old 15-09-2013, 09:38   #468
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
He forgets that the monos in previous AC races also couldn't safely handle those conditions. It was funny when the between race coverage went to past AC races and showed Conner dismasting in 17kts. One boat also SANK in similar conditions.

When asked about all of the boat breakage and danger occuring in the 1999 LV series, Conner had this to say: "Well, nothing's safe, but I think that's what [these boats] are built for"

Regarding all this nostalgia for "traditional" AC racing - here is a Dennis Conner quote made when New Zealand built the first fiberglass 12 meter: "Why would you build a plastic yacht ... unless you wanted to cheat?"

The only real differences here for some people seem to be catamarans and Ellison.

Mark

Im sure Monos handle stronger winds , the diference is in a mono if all end in disaster you are near the water ... you dont fall from 40 or 50 ft at 50 mph with the danger to be entangled in a CF Spider or worst crash with your head in a splited piece of CF...

Forget the 12 meter mono thing, this days there is enough good designs to be faster and safer in most conditions, cheaper, easy to transport and easy to assemble, with a decent price for most teams... Lets face it, this things are a fancy idea of Ellison to turn the 2013 event in their favor...

I prefer to see a smaller cat and more reliable in most conditions, or a faster mono and the event full of teams in the LV than see a Ego Billonaire fighting with a National team, is Nz against Nz,,,
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Old 15-09-2013, 09:50   #469
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The only real differences here for some people seem to be catamarans and Ellison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Im sure Monos handle stronger winds , the diference is in a mono if all end in disaster you are near the water ... you dont fall from 40 or 50 ft at 50 mph with the danger to be entangled in a CF Spider or worst crash with your head in a splited piece of CF...

Forget the 12 meter mono thing, this days there is enough good designs to be faster and safer in most conditions, cheaper, easy to transport and easy to assemble, with a decent price for most teams... Lets face it, this things are a fancy idea of Ellison to turn the 2013 event in their favor...

I prefer to see a smaller cat and more reliable in most conditions, or a faster mono and the event full of teams in the LV than see a Ego Billonaire fighting with a National team, is Nz against Nz,,,
Thank you for proving my point.

Mark
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Old 15-09-2013, 10:03   #470
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Thank you for proving my point.

Mark

Sorry mate, but is not your point, is my point....
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Old 15-09-2013, 10:12   #471
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Sail better

SF Bay conditions are not secret. Oracle, the Defender chose the overpowered 72s as some type of crazy tv marketing gimmick which resulted in 2.5 crashes and one death.
So as frustrating & stupid the wind limits are its understandable.

Back to the racing. ETNZL sailed poorly from a tactical point in the 1st race ESPECIALLY on the upwind leg. They were sailing defensively and ignoring the race course/conditions. Those STUPID lee bow moves over and over gave away their lead and triggered a near disaster. Their boat speed was down to 9 knots on the lee bow moves and completely opposite what they had been doing in every other race to date = sailing to win. They better get back to covering & not allowing the competitor to go off into different condition unless they are confirmed worse then theirs.
How can you go from aggressive dial down to wimp ass lee bow on a 72' cat?

Still Go Kiwis - Grant Dalton should have delivered a firm msg to the boys + stay on that bucking bronco wing thingy until they carry that cup on the flight home.
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Old 15-09-2013, 10:28   #472
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Re: Sail better

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SF Bay conditions are not secret. Oracle, the Defender chose the overpowered 72s as some type of crazy tv marketing gimmick which resulted in 2.5 crashes and one death.
So as frustrating & stupid the wind limits are its understandable.
I have pointed this out several times: the AC72's you are seeing now were not the boats originally chosen. The original chosen design and build did not envisage foiling, so the original boats were simply reasonable high-powered boats suitable for exciting racing and not crazy-assed out of control machines.

The Kiwis found wiggle room in the box rule and developed foiling. Oracle tried unsuccessfully to shut that down. In an interview Ellison stated that if he had known these were going to be foiling boats, he would have dialed it back to something more like the AC45's. So your thesis that these foiling overpowered 72's are all an Oracle thing has no factual basis at all.

The foiling is a very recent development. It only really began in July, and it wasn't until August that the boats could jibe regularly on foils. There is much more to yet learn in controlling and sailing these boats than has been learned so far. Even the crews have stated numerous times that they learn something new about controlling it and gaining advantages every single time they sail on it.

And once again - the wind limits are artificial, and not the physical limits for these boats. I will wear out the keys it takes typing this to once again point out that these exact same wind limits were in effect for many past mono AC series, and several past mono AC boats broke up and even sank in these conditions.

It all seems to come back to how one feels about catamarans and Ellison.

Mark
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Old 15-09-2013, 10:35   #473
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Re: Twenty Knots

wind limit artificial ? Lol yeah i agree with you, this boats can sail in stronger winds putting the crews are serious danger.. Thas why there is a wind limit rule... No?
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Old 15-09-2013, 10:40   #474
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
wind limit artificial ? Lol yeah i agree with you, this boats can sail in stronger winds putting the crews are serious danger.. Thas why there is a wind limit rule... No?
Yes, the same limits for the same reasons as in past AC mono series.

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Old 15-09-2013, 10:50   #475
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Re: Twenty Knots

I agree, but you miss the fact than a mono cant capsize at 50 mph, humm or pitchpole at the same speed, the case of a Ac mono breaking in half is due to building the hulls to thin and without respect for the limits, saying that i remember well that mono breaking in half, no injuries or deaths....
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Old 15-09-2013, 11:57   #476
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Re: Sail better

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Originally Posted by Chuteman View Post

Back to the racing. ETNZL sailed poorly from a tactical point in the 1st race ESPECIALLY on the upwind leg. They were sailing defensively and ignoring the race course/conditions. Those STUPID lee bow moves over and over gave away their lead and triggered a near disaster. (...)
Stupid or not stupid. Do you think it possible Kiwis were not giving away their lead but rather the US team was slowly catching up due to improved upwind performance of their boat?

I did not see any bad tactics. I think they sailed the race as dictated by the conditions and by their rivals. I must admit I am not a much of a match racer even though I used to be a keen racer. One learns something each day.

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Old 15-09-2013, 12:46   #477
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Re: Sail better

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I have pointed this out several times: the AC72's you are seeing now were not the boats originally chosen. The original chosen design and build did not envisage foiling, so the original boats were simply reasonable high-powered boats suitable for exciting racing and not crazy-assed out of control

It all seems to come back to how one feels about catamarans and Ellison.

Mark
BUT NOBODY stopped or even paused the madness when foiling was introduced by wiggle or whatever means and a Cat with a 40 m wing even without foils does not sound "reasonable" in SF Bay summer winds......San Diego ( no offense ) maybe.

Wind Limits - the "reasoanble" non foiling AC45s had an 18 kt wind limit in the Red Bull series cancelling the final double point race with boats zig zagging all over the place.

AC45s wing is approx 1.5 x boat length
AC72s wing is almost 2x boat length

When decisions are made to sail these boats on SF Bay, on a bath tub course, with only 1 upwind / 2 downwind legs, with 2.5 crashes +1 death, geared for TV/ non-sailors and the resulting wind limits that stop races from starting or continuing mid-race AC mgt deserve / earned every criticism.

AC is the pinnacle of professional sailing that should showcase the sport (in whatever boat) and it's sailors against mother nature. If recreational sailors are safely sailing away from a cancelled AC race something is truly wrong.

This is all ebbing water under the bridge at this point. Let's get back to the racing - Go Kiwis
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Old 15-09-2013, 13:14   #478
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Re: Sail better

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Stupid or not stupid. Do you think it possible Kiwis were not giving away their lead but rather the US team was slowly catching up due to improved upwind performance of their boat?

I did not see any bad tactics. I think they sailed the race as dictated by the conditions and by their rivals. I must admit I am not a much of a match racer even though I used to be a keen racer. One learns something each day.

b.
Agree completely USA sailed faster/better upwind yesterday but NZL changed their tactics which had worked previously = stay aggressive, cover on crosses, sail to favored parts of course ( even GJ wondered why they did not do that ) and think a couple of moves ahead..

Dictated - in the past they did a much better job not being in that position or getting out of it.
As Ray Davies said in press conf, they would go back and watch video & stats to see what was going on.
Will see how they respond going forward as USA is now pumped with new mojo.
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Old 15-09-2013, 13:43   #479
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Re: Twenty Knots

So, is NBC going to broadcast live today (in Calif)?

Jim
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:32   #480
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Re: Twenty Knots

Looks like #9 is in the bag for the US, 600 m lead.
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