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Old 19-08-2013, 08:38   #31
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Re: Twenty knots

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
The quoted USD 100,000,000 is likely a campaign cost, not the cost of the sailboat.
Nope. They cost $100M apiece to build, which is why only four syndicates were able to come up with the funding even though a dozen syndicates participated in last year's AC World Series.

What do you get for $100M? You get a boat incapable of doing penalty turns, to begin with. (No problem, just amend the rules.)

Eight of these monsters have been built to date, two of which have failed catastrophically so far. After the last accident killed an Olympic medalist, they had to negotiate an 18.7 knot wind limit to start races lest the US Coast Guard revoke their permits for the regatta.

$1,000,000 for a sailboat wingboat that has a one-in-four track record of not surviving its first 100 sailing days.

The crazy thing is that we haven't yet had a race that was contended all the way to the finish line. Too many broken rudders, broken dagger boards, a busted hydraulic system, a broken boom, busted wings.....

Oh yeah, lets not forget that in Race #1 of the LV finals two of the grinders from the winning boat finished the race in a rescue boat after the wingboat did a bow dip that would have been a pitchpole had they not been sandbagging at that point because the other boat had already dropped out after they couldn't control their daggerboards.

The rule here seems to be: never go sailing without a rescue boat to follow you around.

Impressive.
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:49   #32
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Re: Twenty Knots

Y'all talk like sails aren't wings, but they all are, including your inefficient cloth things. A sail is merely a wing set up sideways. Maybe if y'all learned that, you might be better at sailing.
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:53   #33
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
Y'all talk like sails aren't wings, but they all are, including your inefficient cloth things. A sail is merely a wing set up sideways. Maybe if y'all learned that, you might be better at sailing.
I have learned on this site that many cruisers are not worried about being extremely efficient sailors. As long as the boat is moving good and all systems are functional seems to make them happy..........

And when you are sailing 500-1000 miles plus you can understand the reasoning as compared to sailing around the bouys or a 100 mile "Round the Island Race."
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:53   #34
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Re: Twenty knots

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Nope. They cost $100M apiece to build, which is why only four syndicates were able to come up with the funding even though a dozen syndicates participated in last year's AC World Series.

What do you get for $100M? You get a boat incapable of doing penalty turns, to begin with. (No problem, just amend the rules.)

Eight of these monsters have been built to date, two of which have failed catastrophically so far. After the last accident killed an Olympic medalist, they had to negotiate an 18.7 knot wind limit to start races lest the US Coast Guard revoke their permits for the regatta.

$1,000,000 for a sailboat wingboat that has a one-in-four track record of not surviving its first 100 sailing days.

The crazy thing is that we haven't yet had a race that was contended all the way to the finish line. Too many broken rudders, broken dagger boards, a busted hydraulic system, a broken boom, busted wings.....
No, you are wrong on that cost. The boats themselves cost 8-10 million. The campaign cost estimates are around 100 million, but that also includes the AC45 boat and campaign that preceded the AC72's - not to mention two AC72's, not one. Oh, also the entire research program and back room support that goes on.

Why are penalty turns set in stone? What is wrong with using boat length forfeitures instead? The result is the same - you pay a substantial penalty in a prescribed time frame that is difficult to rebound from. Penalty turns only came into existence quite late in the America's Cup life, and there are other sailboat races where they are not used anymore. Why are they now inviolable here?

Again, these boats are probably too large and their early teething pains are in full public view, unlike many other high tech boats that are commonly accepted now. It is unfair to criticize them for the very thing that makes them exciting. Would you like to see Toyota Nascar or F1 racing? Would the Indy be more exciting with station wagons? How many of those cars smoke and break during races? Many, but everyone accepts that as part of the sport.

Keep in mind that the original design did not anticipate that these boats would actually foil when sailed in a certain way at the speeds they could reach. That is why I think they are a bit too large, but there is nothing that can be done about that now.

And the foiling is exciting - it is the wave of the future for professional match racing boats.

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Old 19-08-2013, 08:59   #35
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Re: Twenty Knots

BTW, for those complaining that these aren't sailboats, or they use different rules and courses, or they aren't what you consider "proper", then don't pay any attention to it.

I don't watch F1, but I also do not go on car forums and complain that they aren't "real" cars.

Some people here seem to take personal offense from the simple existence of these boats and need to vent that offense. Doesn't make any sense to me.

And before anyone puts up the argument that these boats have usurped the "America's Cup", please describe what you think the proper "America's Cup" boat is.

Schooners?

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Old 19-08-2013, 09:05   #36
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Re: Twenty Knots

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And when you are sailing 500-1000 miles plus you can understand the reasoning as compared to sailing around the bouys or a 100 mile "Round the Island Race."
actually, I can't.

Especially if I'm sailing for thousands of miles, I want to sail efficiently: to possibly avoid inclement weather, save time, save food, save water, less chafe/wear on the boat, less time using the engine, stuff like that. No?
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:13   #37
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Re: Twenty Knots

One needn't be a catamaran to be exciting:

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Old 19-08-2013, 09:15   #38
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Re: Twenty Knots

Markpierce,

That photo makes me miss the Bay Area big time. Thanks for posting.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:18   #39
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
actually, I can't.

Especially if I'm sailing for thousands of miles, I want to sail efficiently: to possibly avoid inclement weather, save time, save food, save water, less chafe/wear on the boat, less time using the engine, stuff like that. No?
I raced small catamarans for 15 years so you are preaching to the choir with me, but my longest races were several 100 mile Round the Island (RTI) races out of Ft Walton Beach FL.

On the races where we finished in 12 hours or so, we were all about being attentive to the sails for max efficiency. (But) On the races that stretched out to 20 hours plus, we became a bit less concerned with the sails. Plus it was dark..............very dark in those narrows and we had no engine but we did have barge traffic and no running lights, just light sticks. (and very little wind at times)

I can see where some folks would get so that as long as it's moving good they are happy especially on a long voyage with lack of sleep.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:21   #40
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Re: Twenty Knots

I like watching the boats but I miss the tacking duels, head sail switches, and spinnaker sets.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:24   #41
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Re: Twenty Knots

This morning's newspaper reports the Italians beat the New Zealanders yesterday (Sunday) because the Kiwi's battery pack failed, crippling the hydraulic system operating the rake of the daggerboards and the shape of the sail.

(This was Sunday's first race. The second race that day was cancelled.)

Skipper Max Sirena of the Luna Rossa: "These boats are really fragile and need a lot of maintenance." In Saturday's race, his boat's daggerboard delaminated and broke away from the holding pin.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:27   #42
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Re: Twenty Knots

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If AC went back to slow heavy boats no one would watch it. Its good to see cats performing at their true potential, considering they used to be banned. Now they are actually flying. Amazing stuff.
slow heavy boats? all sailboats are slow heavy boats. displacement hulls! the current AC boats are a far cry from sailboats. crew wears crash helmets, oxygen bottles for underwater survival. foils to lift the boats from the water. after the starts, end of racing. no need for racing rules with these guys. I say get back to yacht racing and start a new cup for these cats, if they still want to race them in the future. Maybe a few new race fans but I for one are bored after watching one race. my thoughts for what it's worth.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:28   #43
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
One needn't be a catamaran to be exciting:

I agree that other boats can be exciting, but would you be happy if those were used for America's Cup racing?

That would be like settling for Nascar autos for F1 racing.

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Old 19-08-2013, 09:30   #44
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Re: Twenty Knots

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slow heavy boats? all sailboats are slow heavy boats. displacement hulls! the current AC boats are a far cry from sailboats. crew wears crash helmets, oxygen bottles for underwater survival. foils to lift the boats from the water. after the starts, end of racing. no need for racing rules with these guys. I say get back to yacht racing and start a new cup for these cats, if they still want to race them in the future. Maybe a few new race fans but I for one are bored after watching one race. my thoughts for what it's worth.
I believe the group that holds the trophy gets to pick the type boat to be raced as well as the site. Remember Big Dennis back in the day on a catamaran for that challenge.
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Old 19-08-2013, 09:32   #45
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Re: Twenty Knots

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slow heavy boats? all sailboats are slow heavy boats. displacement hulls! the current AC boats are a far cry from sailboats. crew wears crash helmets, oxygen bottles for underwater survival. foils to lift the boats from the water. after the starts, end of racing. no need for racing rules with these guys. I say get back to yacht racing and start a new cup for these cats, if they still want to race them in the future. Maybe a few new race fans but I for one are bored after watching one race. my thoughts for what it's worth.
Again, what is yacht racing - schooners? Nobody races them anymore. J-boats? Classic enthusiasts only. 12 meters? Yawn, and nobody races them anymore. Open 70's? Also gone.

Note the technology progression there, and also note that there was much consternation and heavy complaining each time the boats changed.

What is a "real" yacht race? I bet none of the current sailboat racing meets your criteria anymore.

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