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Old 18-08-2013, 19:52   #16
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Re: Twenty Knots

I guess the promoters don't want anyone else to die and since these machines can "sail" at 40kts in 20kts of wind, they believe it's exciting enough for the viewers so they imposed the arbitrary limit. That's for the LV Cup. They may raise it a few kts. for the Americas Cup.

I'm with those that would rather see monohulls with "real" sails. These boats don't even have a spinnaker let alone fly one. This is not a race I can relate to other than the starting sequence. I know the techies love this stuff but what's next...computer chips that automatically adjust the wings and trim the sails to perfection based upon minute changes in wind speed and direction so that it's really all about whoever is manning the helm?

Regarding Bash's post, I don't see 20 kts very often since once a small craft advisory goes up the club doesn't let us charter. The only way it happens is if I happen to already be on the water when the wind picks up. The few times I've been in conditions like that we didn't reef. I would have reefed if the boat were heeling excessively, I couldn't lower the traveler any further to spill anymore wind, and/or I couldn't steer towards my destination effectively because the rudder is too far out of the water. I guess it would depend on the boat. Some stay on their feet better than others.
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Old 18-08-2013, 22:37   #17
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Re: Twenty Knots

20 knots just get us moving LOL We would most likely dose the main and run mizzen and both jibs. 30 knots mizzen and staysail, with maybe a reef, depends on wind direction.
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Old 19-08-2013, 06:37   #18
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Depends on the boat of course...previous 37' cutter mono - everything flying in 20+ and loving it, current 35' cat 20+ time to pull in that first reef, my H33 - deeply reefed and blade at 20 knots.
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Old 19-08-2013, 06:44   #19
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Re: Twenty Knots

Since ol' Nat Herreshoff himself built a cat, he'd about be coming himself to see what the America's Cup is doing now.

some history:
Nathanael Herreshoff's revolutionary catamaran design of 1876, Amaryllis.
http://www.herreshoff.org/news/publi...1_8.pdf‎
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:00   #20
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Re: Twenty Knots

Upwind in 20 knots I am already reefed, Main 1st reef, genoa 2nd reef.

Basically I start reefing at 17 knots on the deck upwind.

At 25-27 knots, solid, I am tucking in the second reef into the main.



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Old 19-08-2013, 07:10   #21
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Upwind in 20 knots I am already reefed, Main 1st reef, genoa 2nd reef.

Basically I start reefing at 17 knots on the deck upwind.

At 25-27 knots, solid, I am tucking in the second reef into the main.



Mark
We do about the same. I like to sail a little flat because it keeps the Bride and dog happy. So anything that has me heeling over 15 degrees means putting in a reef.

When we get a new main, I will probably add a 3rd reef that will leave a very small amount of sail on the main. I will also go down a little with the genny to a 110 from a 135. With the 135 we are reefing that in anything over 15 and it doesn't get a great shape. I would also like to get it up off the deck a little. The factory genny is a deck sweeper and sometimes difficult to see around.

All of that being said, we are cruisers not racers. I am ok with not being at hull speed all the time as long as we are making comfortable progress to the next port.

Fair winds,

Jesse
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:27   #22
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Re: Twenty Knots

Replace the genoa with the Yankee, leave the main unreefed otherwise we'd get nowhere on the Swanson. It really loves 20 knots, she starts to SAIL!
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:35   #23
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I put in a reef. Is that even possible on those "boats"?
They can drop the jib but the trouble is then they get even faster ...

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Old 19-08-2013, 07:40   #24
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Re: Twenty Knots

Like someone said earlier, those AC Catamarans would be doing well over 40 knots in winds like that. Maybe over 50 knots. That's why they are wearing helmets........

At speeds like that sailing close can be a problem with the mark roundings etc.

I have hit 23 knots on my NACRA F17 (sailing singlehanded) which only had a 31' carbon fiber mast and 335 sq ft of sail area. The whole thing weighed in at maybe 300lbs. We have had several boats destroyed in 18 plus knots. Hulls sheared off by other boats etc.
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:41   #25
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Re: Twenty Knots

Small boats reef sooner. 1st reef in main at 15 knots apparent. Once crossed SF Bay close-hauled into 27 knots app with staysail and 2nd in the main. Just right- waves only 3 feet- smooth compared to the ocean.
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:43   #26
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Upwind in 20 knots I am already reefed, Main 1st reef, genoa 2nd reef.

Basically I start reefing at 17 knots on the deck upwind.

At 25-27 knots, solid, I am tucking in the second reef into the main.



Mark
On my 40 foot jeanneau, i'm basicaly about like this. Depends a bit on how the sea is running. If low, I sometimes wait to reef. Bigger waves, reef a little earlier.
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Old 19-08-2013, 07:47   #27
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I put in a reef. Is that even possible on those "boats"?
The smaller racing catamaran sails do not have reef points.

Those big AC Cats have a hard wing for a main I believe so no reefing possible.

On the smaller ones you just rake your mast more, crank in max mast prebend, and rotate less or max to breakup the wind flow over the main, and run the traveler out more. Then you feather the jib if you do not have roller furling.
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:00   #28
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Re: Twenty Knots

Those boats are awesome. Check their speed with about 5-8 knots of breeze:

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Old 19-08-2013, 08:00   #29
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Re: Twenty Knots

In the San Francisco Bay, 20 knots translates into 25-30 knots in the slot. Does this race usually include the slot?

Otherwise, in the Bay with 20 knots, on the wind or off I'd have a double reefed main and working jib. Would avoid the slot. 15 knots I'd sail the slot. 18, maybe.

South Pacific where 20 knots is typical one reef in the main and working jib unless wind is forward of the beam, then maybe triple reef. Downwind, double or triple reefed main with a working jib in 20 knots, mostly to accommodate the Aries servopendulum. Otherwise the vane is made to work too hard steering against the force of the wind on the main.

In deteriorating conditions, or where the sky suggest a possible change I reef early. Always reef down at night.

I rarely use the full main, but on approach to Darwin on an ebb tide in 2010 the engine wouldn't start. The wind was 18-20 knots from the S.W.. Needed the full main to point as high as possible and get the drive I needed to overcome the current. The current was something to behold, but I made it to Fanny Bay where I anchored under sail. Great fun!
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:36   #30
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Re: Twenty Knots

The AC72's are designed to sail at 3X wind speed. I don't understand the negative comments about them not sailing in winds above 20kts. The loads on a boat are what counts, not the wind speed, and those loads are tremendous at boat speeds of 40-50kts.

The only reason anyone here can still sail in 20kts of wind is because all of us are on pig boats that can't get out of their own way. All of us. Relative to these boats.

I doubt any of you would attempt to go out in 80kts of wind, which would put equivalent loads on your boat and gear as 20kts do on the AC72's.

I was recently sailing on a Mod70 trimaran at 35kts in 15kts of wind. The forces were tremendous and it took a professional crew and helmsman (L'Hydroptere and AC45) working full time to keep it under control. Some of the control lines were 1.5" Amsteel. That was not a typo.

They call F1 races due to rain, but would you complain that they should be using rally cars or dune buggies instead?

Does anyone know what it costs to campaign an F1? Does F1 translate in anyway to your Toyota? I wouldn't watch a bunch of Prius's lumbering around a track.

We just spent a week watching the AC72's practice and race. I dare anyone to actually go and watch these things in person and not come away impressed and excited. The racing takes place only meters away from the spectators, the course is short, requires a lot of maneuvering and provides many opportunities for screwing up spectacularly, the crew are actually athletes and you get to watch them in action, and the boats are on the edge at all times.

Is it perfect? No. From my observations, the boats are a bit too big and still in the research stage - the teams are daily discovering new ways to operate them. Just in the one week we were there, the teams discovered the code 0 was not helping them, they were just perfecting foil-foil jibing, they found a way to foil upwind and are now working on finding how to optimize VMG this way, they changed the shape of the foils, and Oracle seems to have found a way to be faster without any headsail at all.

All of this learning is being done on TV, which probably hurts the impression of these boats.

But all of this will be ironed out in the future - just like bulb keels, canting keels, broad beams, etc were with the RTW racing boats.

There is no way I want to go back to watching slow mono's slog their way around a long, boring course 10 miles offshore. I could barely stand that when they were, and I have a large interest in the sport.

Mark
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