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Old 04-09-2013, 14:29   #271
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Thats 100MM for TWO boats...e.g. 50MM each.

......

He simply stated 100MM for the boat(s). And he's right.
Again, I don't understand the obsession with the lawyer-like parsing and twisting, unless it is only to try to trip me or deflect from other indefensible issues.

I have no problem with you hating Ellison or catamarans or this type of racing.

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Old 04-09-2013, 14:33   #272
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Re: Twenty knots

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
it was off the cuff
He made that figure before I even posted on this thread and stuck to that figure and its definition several times - even quoting a USAToday article as evidence. He wasn't just responding off the cuff to a statement I made.

It is humorous that Bash has hired you as his lawyer here. He can use the help.

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Old 04-09-2013, 15:36   #273
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Re: Twenty knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...He wasn't just responding off the cuff to a statement I made.
No, he was responding off the cuff to the other guy made who actually had a point in making it. Mr. Bash Bush didn't feel the need to have a cost breakdown. 100MM was his intention - period.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Again, I don't understand the obsession with the lawyer-like parsing and twisting, unless it is only to try to trip me...
It's a reaction to your own parsing and twisting and vitriolic comments which we are sick of reading.
  • The boats cost too damn much.
  • The little guy is out financed.
  • There is no whit or seamanship or tactics or luck where anything can happen, where art can happen, where life can happen.
  • Its a race conducted by drag racers on a go-kart track watched by a Schadenfreude cult wearing scuba gear ready to cut the rings off the loser, live on the media of your choice.
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Old 04-09-2013, 16:34   #274
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Re: Twenty Knots

Gentlemen. It would be nice if you could all cool down a little and stick to facts in the discussion, or at least opinions , without the personal stuff which has crept in. The ignore button and the report button are available to all.



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Old 04-09-2013, 16:47   #275
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Re: Twenty Knots

This arguing convo is ridiculous! could be 100M or 120M or 90M , guess what, is a lot of money for many sindicates , countrys. Fact is this dudes choose a dangerous beast to compete in the actual AC. even Coutts admit in a interview in NZ news that this boats are extreme... heck we talk about sailing!! and this people turn the event in a life dead situation, crashing at 40 something knts and bang your head in some chunk of CF is not what supposed to be a sailing regatta...Whats next?? the speed of sound ......

Colemj, no multi haters here i think, but man, something rational like a 45 with a safe speed and a rational budget cost can turn the next event in something interesting, if USA hold the cup, because if the kiwis won the cup, forget a multibeast for the next cup.... leason learned....
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:06   #276
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Twenty minus 2 Kts

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Colemj, no multi haters here i think, but man, something rational like a 45 with a safe speed and a rational budget cost can turn the next event in something interesting, if USA hold the cup, because if the kiwis won the cup, forget a multibeast for the next cup.... leason learned....
Hold on there windy................Today I traveled from east bay by environmentally responsible public transportation to the AC venue (marina green public area-thank you) to watch the Red Bull Youth AC45 racing - last two races with a tight podium at stake.
Race 1 - over in a flash & leaders not at the top. So even more at stake on the last & final race with double points awarded.
Race 2 - uh, oh..........abandoned / Event Over (12:15) = wind over 18kts (wind limit) ......an absolutely beautiful sailing day on the bay but too perfect for the AC venue. The young sailors were all zipping around waiting for the start, Oracle x 2 was in the background practicing - all sorts of other boats sailing on the bay
If you did not want wind - why did you come to SF Bay???????

Maybe it will be Breakfast AC sailing soon to avoid the "treacherous" SF Bay conditions.........but I won't waste my time or $ to see AC 45/72s/Whatever Cat racing canceled because of our usual local conditions.
Cheering for NZ to take the Cup down under so sailors can take control again.
P.S. NZL won the Red Bull youth shortened event.........setting the stage for a sweep
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:11   #277
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Re: Twenty minus 2 Kts

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Cheering for NZ to take the Cup down under so sailors can take control again.
We could start a little club: Bay Area Sailors Rooting for Team New Zealand.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:15   #278
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Re: Twenty minus 2 Kts

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We could start a little club: Bay Area Sailors Rooting for Team New Zealand.
How about a BIG club?
All the people who have made plans to watch the racing (LV Cup & RB Youth) in person & at home then saw those plans & $$ "blown" away by our usual conditions will certainly join us.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:18   #279
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Sail area of AC 72 = 6,243 square feet;
Sail area of Bash's 46' production boat = 1,000 square feet.

Displacement of AC 72 = 12,566 pounds;
Displacement of Bash's 46' production boat (dry) = 26,180 pounds.

SA/D ratio of AC 72 = 184.81 (!!!)
SA/D ratio of Bash's 46' production boat = 18.15

Do the math.
What does this have to do with anything? My last racing catamaran had a SA/D of around 115 or so and was a single handed boat.

It was 17'9" long and weighed about 300 lbs or so with around 335 sq ft of sail if I ran the jib (along with the main and spinnaker). I would run the jib on distances races if the wind was light. Btw, my top speed was around 23 knots or so the one time I had it checked.

The boat was a NACRA F-17:



It's quite a different world racing cats as compared to old slow monohulls. If I was in Florida now, I get an F-16 Viper. The boat only weighs around 250lbs with about the same sail area as my old NACRA. Again is all pretty normal catamaran racing. Plus, AC boat are always a little extreme no matter what boat they are using.

One thing I have notice though is that the crews are in a lot better shape than the monohull crews used to be.

2B Sailing - 2B Products - Viper F16

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Old 04-09-2013, 17:19   #280
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Re: Twenty Knots

I forget to say 45 with regular sails!! lol. anyway 45 better than 72, no?
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:23   #281
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Re: Twenty Knots

I hope you all remember the 2010 America's Cup where several races were called for too much wind. The upper windspeed limit was 15 kts.

Are the AC72s Dangerous? Of course! But fatalities aren't exactly unknown in sailboat racing. San Francisco has had its share during the various Farallones races, and the VOR lost a crewmember in 2006. It's sad when they happen, but it's not unique to the 2013 AC.

Boring? Expensive? Poorly managed? Perhaps. The fleet racing in the L.V. Cup was fun to watch. I will be interested to watch the upcoming match races. If the boats and teams are well-matched it could be good.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:28   #282
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Re: Twenty Knots

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One thing I have notice though is that the crews are in a lot better shape than the monohull crews used to be.
I think it's the cute new outfits. (And maybe the fact that Dennis Connors is no longer in the afterguard.)

Seriously, nothing in my critique of the AC 72s should be misconstrued as anti-multihull sentiment. I'm actually more critical of the wing thingy and the foiling, and the basic instability of boats that have resulted in 18-knot windspeed upper limits.

On my boat, when it gets windy in the summer on SF Bay, I change sails and sometimes even reef the main. That, apparently, is something you can't do in a wing boat.

Embarrassing.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:31   #283
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Re: Twenty Knots

Define old slow heavy monohull!!
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:31   #284
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I hope you all remember the 2010 America's Cup where several races were called for too much wind. The upper windspeed limit was 15 kts.
Ah yes, that was the first time Oracle showed up with a wing. Indeed, the wing on that boat was so tall it couldn't fit under the bridge.

Really.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:35   #285
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I think it's the cute new outfits. (And maybe the fact that Dennis Connors is no longer in the afterguard.)

Seriously, nothing in my critique of the AC 72s should be misconstrued as anti-multihull sentiment. I'm actually more critical of the wing thingy and the foiling, and the basic instability of boats that have resulted in 18-knot windspeed upper limits.

On my boat, when it gets windy in the summer on SF Bay, I change sails and sometimes even reef the main. That, apparently, is something you can't do in a wing boat.

Embarrassing.
Actually, we don't reef the mainsail in catamaran racing.............which may be why they have the wind limit.

As the wind increases, we downhaul more, we rotate the mast less, then we set the traveler further out, then we crank in more mast prebend when we get the chance say between races, then we rake the mast more, then we rotate to the max to bust up the wind over the sails, then we feather the jib, then we get a fat boy crew!

We basically transform the sail/wing from that of a DC3 to that of an F18 fighter..........think big, round, and straight to thin/flatter and sweeped back.
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