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Old 04-09-2013, 11:10   #256
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
So you are finally admitting that you were wrong on many points you made earlier?

The article states that the boats do not cost $100 million (it says they cost $8-10 million) - where you stated the boats themselves cost $100M.

...

The article is also full of gross mistakes.

Mark
If the article is full of gross mistakes, your arguments against Mr. Bush have no credibility.

Moreover, they never stated the Oracle boats cost 8-10MM; they stated the amount without a specific reference. We could just as easily infer it to be the minimum amount to build a boat with some low grade materials, not the cost of high tech strata, nor the high prime talents of design, research, etc of the Oracle money pit.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:32   #257
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Re: Twenty Knots

Who is Mr. Bush?

All of my points were made well before this article was written, so I don't see what any of its contents have to do with their credibility.

The quote from the article is: "a single yacht costs $8 million to $10 million, and most teams build two in case one is destroyed in the competition."

I suppose one could bring the argument that that figure is not representative of any boat ACTUALLY built, or just a random unknown boat built with glass, polyester and dacron, and that the real number for these boats is $100 million, as Bash states.

However, that is stretching the argument very thin, don't you think?

I have corrected Bash several times that the cost of the entire campaign goes to $100 million - which you seem to be eluding to when you list talent, research, etc. Bash, however, insists the boats themselves cost that figure. He is wrong.

Mark
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:46   #258
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I have corrected Bash several times
Dozens of times, at this point.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:46   #259
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Re: Twenty Knots

you guys are fined 2 weeks of CF time!
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:58   #260
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Who is Mr. Bush?

All of my points were made well before this article was written, so I don't see what any of its contents have to do with their credibility.

The quote from the article is: "a single yacht costs $8 million to $10 million, and most teams build two in case one is destroyed in the competition."

I suppose one could bring the argument that that figure is not representative of any boat ACTUALLY built, or just a random unknown boat built with glass, polyester and dacron, and that the real number for these boats is $100 million, as Bash states.

However, that is stretching the argument very thin, don't you think?

I have corrected Bash several times that the cost of the entire campaign goes to $100 million - which you seem to be eluding to when you list talent, research, etc. Bash, however, insists the boats themselves cost that figure. He is wrong.

Mark
Well he's kind of right. If you built one AC72 fully rigged and parked it in a shed you would probably have spent 8 - 10 million getting to that point.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:59   #261
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Don L View Post
you guys are fined 2 weeks of CF time!
Could be worse, I guess, if I were forced to go watch another AC race from on the water.

I'll be out there for the superyacht race affiliated with the AC regatta. The one nice thing about the AC debacle is that it's brought some amazing sailboats into the bay, and it's kinda fun trading tacks with so many boats with five-spreader rigs. And the best part is that these races won't be called off once the breeze hits 20 knots.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:21   #262
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I suppose one could bring the argument that that figure is not representative of any boat ACTUALLY built, or just a random unknown boat built with glass, polyester and dacron, and that the real number for these boats is $100 million, as Bash states.

However, that is stretching the argument very thin, don't you think?

I have corrected Bash several times that the cost of the entire campaign goes to $100 million - which you seem to be eluding to when you list talent, research, etc. Bash, however, insists the boats themselves cost that figure. He is wrong.

Mark
You make an argument using the article as evidence, then you say "The article is also full of gross mistakes." Ummm...how convenient but *ahem totally voids the credibility of your corrections, don't you think? Explain how that works again? You get to pick and choose? Sorry, either the liar is a liar or they are telling the truth.

Mr. Bash Bush didn't ever say that the material alone cost 100 MM. Look at the thread. Mr. Bash Bush I am sure was taking into account materials, labor, and design talent into this figure. That is the cost of what you pay at the dealer.

Moreover, I believe the costs well exceed 100 million for the boats as a whole. In other articles, which I have read (more than one!), credible articles, the ORACLE boats (2 of them) cost 100 million to produce. One of the articles specifically stated that they could NOT include the campaign or the per diem costs for coffee and muffins because those costs are continual and Larry has a nice paypal account.

It's laughable to me that each of these boats costs only 10MM each in materials alone. impossible. Meh on you.
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Old 04-09-2013, 13:24   #263
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
One of the articles specifically stated that they could NOT include the campaign or the per diem costs for coffee and muffins because those costs are continual and Larry has a nice paypal account.
.
I'll say one thing nice about the new boats: the winch grinders are human beings. Actual deck apes!

You may remember that powered winches were allowed on the boats that pretended to race in 2010.

Larry apparently got tired of being laughed at for his pushbutton trimaran.

(You may recall that if Alinghi had won in 2010, they were going to replace the International ACC 70s with a new ACC 90 class. What a shame Larry won that regatta.)
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Old 04-09-2013, 13:32   #264
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
You make an argument using the article as evidence, then you say "The article is also full of gross mistakes." Ummm...how convenient but *ahem totally voids the credibility of your corrections, don't you think? Explain how that works again? You get to pick and choose? Sorry, either the liar is a liar or they are telling the truth.

Mr. Bash Bush didn't ever say that the material alone cost 100 MM. Look at the thread. Mr. Bash Bush I am sure was taking into account materials, labor, and design talent into this figure. That is the cost of what you pay at the dealer.

Moreover, I believe the costs well exceed 100 million for the boats as a whole. In other articles, which I have read (more than one!), credible articles, the ORACLE boats (2 of them) cost 100 million to produce. One of the articles specifically stated that they could NOT include the campaign or the per diem costs for coffee and muffins because those costs are continual and Larry has a nice paypal account.

It's laughable to me that each of these boats costs only 10MM each in materials alone. impossible. Meh on you.
As I said in my previous post, the points I made that you say have no credibility because of that article were made before that article was written. I'm not picking and choosing anything. If it helps you, forget that I remade those points with that article and fall back to the other evidence.

Read the thread - Bash stated several times the boats themselves cost $100M, not the research and development and all that (the AC45's were part of the R&D). Neither of us thought it was only for raw materials and I'm sure both of our assumptions included labor, et al. I even suggested that the $100M was a broader cost of the campaign, and he said it was only for building the boat.

So let me be clear on my position - $100M was not spent in design, material and labor to build one AC72. I don't know what the exact value is, but all sources so far state $8-10M. I believe it is slightly North of this, but nowhere near $100M.

I'm happy to admit that the boats cost $100M each to build, as long as creditable evidence and sources are presented. I think $10M is obscene, so $100M won't faze me. However, other than the single, and factually isolated, USAToday article Bash presented, every single other article and piece of data I can find states otherwise.

But I like how you two burrow into minutia and details in parsing argumentative syntax instead of addressing any real points.

Like I said, I have no problem with you or anyone hating catamarans or hating Ellison. The fact that neither you nor Bash can resist ad hominem attacks when referring to Ellison speaks volumes of your seething rage in that manner.

Mark
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Old 04-09-2013, 13:48   #265
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I'll say one thing nice about the new boats, the winch grinders are human beings. Actual deck apes!

You may remember that powered winches were allowed on the boats that pretended to race in 2010.

Larry apparently got tired of being laughed at for his pushbutton trimaran.

(You may recall that if Alinghi had won in 2010, they were going to replace the International ACC 70s with a new ACC 90 class. What a shame Larry won that regatta.)

He dont won that regatta, he steal it from Alinghi with tricks!! I remember well that regatta in Valencia , a Monster tri V Cata .. and with plenty of litigation BS in between.... Now thats shame and lame!!!
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Old 04-09-2013, 13:52   #266
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Re: Twenty Knots

I dunno, Cappy Bash. I'd like to peel back my posturing and whip-sharding around in this thread, have a positive attitude emulating your maturity and experience in some way, admiring something about these boats or at least the ape crew since they work so hard, but there is that returning empty feeling inside when I view the action in real time, a gut wrenching yawn, deep inside, near the large intestine, a pebble, a polyp -- grinders or not, its a drag race on a go-cart course.
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Old 04-09-2013, 14:04   #267
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I dunno, Cappy Bash. I'd like to peel back my posturing and whip-sharding around in this thread, have a positive attitude emulating your maturity and experience in some way, admiring something about these boats or at least the ape crew since they work so hard, but there is that returning empty feeling inside when I view the action in real time, a gut wrenching yawn, deep inside, near the large intestine, a pebble, a polyp -- grinders or not, its a drag race on a go-cart course.
Agreed. Yawn. Boats that can't be raced in 20 knots, and need to be followed closely by rescue boats, even during practice--whatever they paid for them, it was too much.

Yes. A drag race on a go-cart course by boats incapable of doing penalty turns.

And the defender is now behind -2 to 0, prior to the first race.
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Old 04-09-2013, 14:09   #268
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post

So let me be clear on my position - $100M was not spent in design, material and labor to build one AC72. I don't know what the exact value is, but all sources so far state $8-10M. I believe it is slightly North of this, but nowhere near $100M.
Mark
Thats 100MM for TWO boats...e.g. 50MM each. That might make sense to your acceptance criteria as a 1:4 or 1:5 ratio of materials to design/labour/testing/transport/bug fixes/recasting/spares etc if you sat down and broke it down. I personally can imagine much more in entropy losses here, but 100MM I think is reasonable for the boat fund estimate.

How much do you realistically imagine design costs would be for this thing? 100k? Really? A bunch of interns eating Ramen down in SOMA in shorts and zories? The design team alone must have been 10MM.

Mr. Bash Bush never stated a breakdown. Please list the post numbers where he posted his breakdowns. I looked at em all. He simply stated 100MM for the boat(s). And he's right.

ps. probably 20-30MM for design is more realistic corp. speaking.
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Old 04-09-2013, 14:22   #269
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Re: Twenty knots

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Nope. They cost $100M apiece to build
Singular - no "s".

Mark
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Old 04-09-2013, 14:24   #270
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Re: Twenty knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Singular - no "s".

Mark
ummm and your point?

he was replying to:

"The quoted USD 100,000,000 is likely a campaign cost, not the cost of the sailboat."

it was off the cuff
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