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Old 03-09-2013, 20:51   #241
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Re: Twenty Knots

Sail area of AC 72 = 6,243 square feet;
Sail area of Bash's 46' production boat = 1,000 square feet.

Displacement of AC 72 = 12,566 pounds;
Displacement of Bash's 46' production boat (dry) = 26,180 pounds.

SA/D ratio of AC 72 = 184.81 (!!!)
SA/D ratio of Bash's 46' production boat = 18.15

Do the math.
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:52   #242
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Re: Twenty Knots

So you are finally admitting that you were wrong on many points you made earlier?

The article states that the boats do not cost $100 million (it says they cost $8-10 million) - where you stated the boats themselves cost $100M.

The article states that the 20kt wind limit is artificially applied due to the earlier death, and not the wind limit of the boats themselves - where you stated the opposite.

The article is also full of gross mistakes. It states that the boat rise up on "a thin hydrofoil known as a daggerboard". It also states that Oracle was caught adding "illegal weights" to their AC72 in these races, when the situation they are talking about occurred on the AC45 during the fleet racing in the past year.

To its credit, it makes note that the AC is being televised on a major US network for the first time in 20 years - and gives the reason that these boats and the racing format is finally interesting enough for a more general audience. The exact thing you seem to hate about this.

This quote was great: "Just having these boats sail past you at 40 knots, or 50 mph, itís a freakish and awesome experience even for someone doing it as long as I have."

Never heard that from any other AC race that I can recall.

Gotta love this quote from the comment section: "As someone who has sailed Extreme 40ís, ORMA 60ís and other large cats and multihulls, I wouldnít have an issue sailing on these things. The risks inherent to these boats are only slightly higher than the risks associated with any other vessel. God help me if Iím ever on a monohull in the middle of the ocean. Youíll find me in the bilge every morning, afternoon, and evening with my torque wrench making sure the keel bolts are tight."

In fact, almost the entire comment section seems to be against your earlier views on this matter.

Good job Bash - you are finally starting to see the light!

Mark
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:58   #243
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Ah yes, the lack of secrecy. Which is why the international jury just just spent a record amount of time (in the entire history of sailboat racing) trying to figure out how much to penalize the Oracle syndicate, even though the standard penalty for an RRS Rule #2 violation is automatic disqualification.

Number of Colemj posts so far, this thread: 66.

Current score:

Emirates: 0 (need 9 victories to win)
Oracle: -2 (need 11 victories to win)

And the racing hasn't yet begun.

Embarrassing.
Once again, a deflection. The issue is the AC45 and a past campaign, not the boat they are racing. The AC72's remain the most transparent boats in recent history.

Don't know why you are counting my posts here. Do you count my lack of posts elsewhere? Or explain why you have twice as many posts in this forum as I do, even though I have been here 3 years more than you? Are you policing other's posts?

Will you ever directly address any points about your mistakes and wrong "facts" on this topic?

Or will you deflect once again?

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Old 03-09-2013, 21:07   #244
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Do the math.
Let's see: that's the same sail area/displacement ratio you'd get if you took a J-120 and rigged it with a 14-story-tall mast.
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:07   #245
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by bill cartwright View Post
I think the America Cup has turned in to a joke. The people and money spent for this show is unreal. It is like going drag racing and watching the funny cars only and not the little people who spend their hard earned moery to race and place. I will stick with the little guy hands down. As far as these oversized Hobie Cats on steriods, well that is another story. I have sailed the bay and love to play in the Gap with my Ranger 22 a while back and now I sail the Gulf with 20+ winds daily. I have sailed for years around the Santa Cruze Island off Ventura with 60 knot winds and 30 foot seas and all was done by myself with no fear or worries. 20 knots is nothing and if these boats can not perform in all winds then they need to go back to real racing as it has been done for over a hundred years. If they want to make sailing competative then they have to open the classes and assign handicaps so more people can get involved. Limiting it to 2 or 3 boats is sad and takes away from the rest of the world. It should not be "How Much Money You Got" but rather Just How skilled you are with your boat so you and the boat are as one. Monohulls only should sail this course and hydrofoils and the other types should have their own class. I think with the proper handicap, a good windsurfer could win the thing over and he would have done so for less than 5K in equipment! Again it should be the sailor and not some billion dollar boat in these events. Lets make it a Iron Man Race with one sailor from each country racing! YEA!!!!
This is just my opinion, I am sure you have your own, so spill your guts.
Bill Cartwright
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Galveston,Texas

Bill,

There hasn't been a boat in the AC that can sail in all conditions in 100 years (well, maybe not 100, but it is a LONG time). That isn't the point of the race at all.

Also, the race has never been a fleet race or class race or handicap race. Again, that isn't the point of the race at all - it has always been about 2 boats in a match race. That is the whole point of the Deed.

There is a long history in every single AC race of a proportion of people disliking the boats and/or the formats. That will never change.

It has always been about "how much money you got". Look at Vanderbilt and Lipton, et al. Right to the modern day.

You and everyone else who denigrate the athletes sailing in this event are doing them a great disservice and showing a complete lack of understanding of the physical and mental skills involved.

Mark
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:09   #246
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Sail area of AC 72 = 6,243 square feet;
Sail area of Bash's 46' production boat = 1,000 square feet.

Displacement of AC 72 = 12,566 pounds;
Displacement of Bash's 46' production boat (dry) = 26,180 pounds.

SA/D ratio of AC 72 = 184.81 (!!!)
SA/D ratio of Bash's 46' production boat = 18.15

Do the math.
My math says Bash thinks of himself as AC quality, while his boat will never stand a chance. I think that bothers Bash.

I would hate an AC race sailed with Bash's boat. Even the 12 meters did better than that. Heck, our boat is better than that.

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Old 03-09-2013, 21:10   #247
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Let's see: that's the same sail area/displacement ratio you'd get if you took a J-120 and rigged it with a 14-story-tall mast.
What would it take to get that SA/D on an optimist?

Love these irrelevant diversions and deflections!

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Old 03-09-2013, 21:17   #248
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Once again, a deflection. The issue is the AC45 and a past campaign, not the boat they are racing.
Wrong again. The issue was RRS rule #2: A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.

The series score was just adjusted by the race committee. Read the news. http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...rts&id=9234921
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:28   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

Bill,

There hasn't been a boat in the AC that can sail in all conditions in 100 years (well, maybe not 100, but it is a LONG time). That isn't the point of the race at all.

Also, the race has never been a fleet race or class race or handicap race. Again, that isn't the point of the race at all - it has always been about 2 boats in a match race. That is the whole point of the Deed.

There is a long history in every single AC race of a proportion of people disliking the boats and/or the formats. That will never change.

It has always been about "how much money you got". Look at Vanderbilt and Lipton, et al. Right to the modern day.

You and everyone else who denigrate the athletes sailing in this event are doing them a great disservice and showing a complete lack of understanding of the physical and mental skills involved.

Mark
The ACs are a neat boat but i would rather watch a sailor tweeking sails rather than pumping hydroloic oil. I guess i am old school as i still hank on sails and reef mains and all the things our forefathers did to make this sport so grand. Like i said , it is just my opinion. Technology has advanced no doubt. When the race is over, i will just hank on my sails and sail home.
Have a good one!
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:29   #250
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
What would it take to get that SA/D on an optimist?
Optimist SA/D = 31.49
AC 72 SA/D = 184.81 (!!!)

Wow. The AC 72 is less stable than an Opti.

Who'd a thunk it?
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Old 04-09-2013, 00:07   #251
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Re: Twenty Knots

If right of way rules were deleted and they were allowed to bash each other I think Bash's boat would be quite good for AC racing.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:50   #252
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Wrong again. The issue was RRS rule #2: A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boatís series score.

The series score was just adjusted by the race committee. Read the news. America's Cup champion Oracle Team USA docked 2 points, fined $250,000 | abc7news.com
No, I'm not wrong. I said that the AC72's did not have the secrecy that previous AC boats had. You countered that they secretly messed with adding weight to the boat and got caught. I pointed out that what you referenced had to do with the AC45 in a different race series, and not the AC72's in the America's Cup.

They should be penalized for this, and they are. But I don't understand your point in bringing this up, unless it is to "prove" that catamarans are evil and Larry Ellison is the devil.

And this isn't the first case of cheating in AC competition. The Australian winged keel was ruled illegal for reason of the design not being native. Of course, they didn't get caught until decades later. I'm sure there are many other examples through the ages, known or not.

But they were in mono's and didn't involve Ellison, so you can over look them, correct?

Again, you are playing loose with random bits of information to make your points.

Please post more articles destroying your positions on this competition - it saves me time.

Here is one for you: Modern Luxury | San Francisco magazine | How to Stop Worrying and Learn to Love (or at Least Accept) the America's Cup

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Old 04-09-2013, 04:51   #253
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
If right of way rules were deleted and they were allowed to bash each other I think Bash's boat would be quite good for AC racing.
My money would be on Zeehag's boat...

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Old 04-09-2013, 04:54   #254
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Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Optimist SA/D = 31.49
AC 72 SA/D = 184.81 (!!!)

Wow. The AC 72 is less stable than an Opti.

Who'd a thunk it?
I didn't ask about which boat was stable - I was interested in how tall a mast the opti would need to achieve the SA/D of an ac72.

Do you really want to see AC boats that are highly stable?

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Old 04-09-2013, 05:47   #255
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Re: Twenty Knots

Would love to see 20 knots here in Dodacanese Islands instead of the 25/35 we usually see.
20 Knots we run full sail in any direction but we don't get those blistering speeds the AC72's achieve.

Love watching the AC 72's but i'd also love to see ten or so 'J' Style boats built of Aluminium to a set rule the contenders draw a ballot and that's the boat they tweak and race for the AC... Who has the best crew and ability?????
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