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Old 02-09-2013, 09:50   #226
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
America True was funded by Christopher Coffin - a very wealthy man indeed. Dawn Riley was the chairman of the team and helmswoman on the boat, but her personal financial position had nothing to do with financing the campaign or the boat.

Dennis Conner was "poor", but was an anomaly in that years cup, to say the least. Everyone else was a billionaire. He got beat pretty badly and early on an uncompetitive boat.
What's that you say: "In that year's cup?" Dennis Connor won the America's Cup four times! He did this by building syndicates and by becoming the best match racer in the world. When Dawn managed America True she went out and found financial backing (from numerous sources.)

You're missing the point as well as important facts. The point is that the AC is now corporate. Instead of national teams--look at the names such as "America True," "Stars and Stripes"--we've got corporate sponsorships: Emirate Airlines, Prada, Oracle.

Dennis jump-started his career by winning an Olympic bronze medal. Dawn crewed for three Americas Cup efforts as well as two Whitbread round the world races. Compare with Larry Ellison, who gets his career started by building an enormous database for the CIA, which he named "Oracle."

When the Australians can't afford to put together a cup syndicate, you've got to know that something's wrong with the process. Or maybe they were just the first to figure that the AC is no longer primarily about sailing.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:05   #227
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Re: Twenty Knots

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What's that you say: "In that year's cup?" Dennis Connor won the America's Cup four times! He did this by building syndicates and by becoming the best match racer in the world. When Dawn managed America True she went out and found financial backing (from numerous sources.)
I was referring to the exact year's racing that you brought up as an argument - the 2000 event, where Dennis Conner was beat badly and early, and Dawn Riley did not finance the boat or the campaign.

BTW, that wasn't the AC you referenced, that was the LV racing.

You just keep bringing up straw man arguments then veering off on diversions and deflections whenever your facts are challenged, rather than meeting the points head on.

Yes, Dennis Conner won the AC four times, but that is irrelevant - he did not win it the year you chose to use to make your point.

And while he did build syndicates, many of his campaigns had very deep pockets behind them. The ones financed by very rich people are the ones he won.

Past AC racing has also had corporate sponsors. Sometimes, the entire corporation was a single person (Lipton, for example). What you are seeing now is branding - which has become more overt, in line with everything else in the world.

Google "2000 america's cup images" - there you will find pages of pictures of boats from that race plastered with corporate advertisements.

Also note that Ellison is not racing these boats - he is funding them. Spithill is racing his boat. Spithill also "jump-started" his career in Olympics and crewed on many AC efforts as well as other races. Spinning this as Ellison compared to Conners is just another diversionary deflection (this is really becoming transparent).

In the past (J-class for example), most countries were also priced out of the entry. In some years, it came down to only two boats showing up at all.

These things go in waves, and it is likely to be coming to that point again. But it is not unique just to this year's race or these particular rich people.

We get it. You hate these boats and you hate Larry Ellison. You can just say that, and it will be a valid viewpoint. To pull up lame arguments and then to skirt around the issues when a simple google search or application of simple logic proves you wrong time and again is silly.

It doesn't help your cause - you have every defensible right to hate catamarans and rich people, but you have no right to make up facts or twist other's responses into deflections from the point.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:20   #228
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Re: Twenty Knots

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The deed of gift has been since twisted by US lawyers well beyond "that type" of race,
By "that type" of race, I meant match racing. It has always been a match race, and I don't think that will ever change. I hope it doesn't, because there are other avenues for fleet racing. I do hope that the match races become closer than this year's have been.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:24   #229
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I doubt it. Most cruising sailors don't even adjust their sails properly now. As long as the boat is moving pretty good, they are happy. We've had long discussions concerning this on other threads.

I'm guessing the old dacron sail is fine for the average cruiser. He just isn't going to worry about having that wing meeting the air perfectly.

What's the last thing most of these cruisers replace on their boat? The sails especially the project guys, or the guys buying used boats. Have you seen some of the rags on boats for sale? Many times you will have the original main from a '70's boat. It's so blown out it pathetic.

Now for racing yes, definitely.
I didn't mean to imply that wing sails will become ubiquitous - I agree with your points about the majority of cruisers. I was challenged as to how any of this technology could filter down and was just pointing out an example.

Lots of cruising boats without even fin keels yet - some still being produced. Some future boats, however, will have options for newer technologies developed in racing boats.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:37   #230
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Or maybe they were just the first to figure that the AC is no longer primarily about sailing.
I wanted to address this point separately.

I'm not sure why you think this AC is not about sailing, and why you imply that past AC's were not about the boat.

If you had watched any of the interviews with the crews of this year's boats, you would have heard them talk about how sailing these boats is the most difficult challenge of their careers.

The crew talk about how it is the most physically demanding boat requiring split-second coordination of the entire crew and that they cannot let their attention wander for even a split second. The physical training they describe as necessary borders on special forces type of training.

The helmsmen talk about how much skill they have had to developed just to sail these boats, and how much they still have to learn. They also state that these boats are the largest challenge of their careers.

The tacticians talk about how overwhelmed they are. They describe the skill necessary to make tactical decisions at closing speeds of 100kts on short courses. They too state that these boats are the largest challenge of their careers.

You do them a great disservice by suggesting otherwise. These are premiere athletes sailing at the highest level.

As for past AC campaigns, please state a plausible argument where boat technology was not the largest part of the campaign. Remember the skirts around the keels and people spying with high-tec equipment from hill tops? Remember compound break-ins and stolen design computers?

If there is one aspect of this year's AC, it is the lack of secrecy. Sure, teams will be pulling surprises in what they have figured out - but they are practicing in plain site, the box rule is pretty stiff, and the boats are available often for complete viewing.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:52   #231
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Re: Twenty Knots

Well i believe Chris got the Wing idea after the incident with Anna, seems to me now is upset and mad at mainsails...but oh well, i dont believe we see such things in productions boats to soon, someone need to be the guinea pig again with mast foils in most weather conditions... whos next?

The idea of folding or 360 rotation seems cool in theory, but we know in big blows sometimes we get fast violent gusts from the oposite or diferent direction... Just wonder.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:58   #232
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post


The idea of folding or 360 rotation seems cool in theory, but we know in big blows sometimes we get fast violent gusts from the oposite or diferent direction... Just wonder.
Me too but what is the difference between the foil and a storm tri-sail if a opposite gust?

If the "sail area" is the same..................???
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:01   #233
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Re: Twenty Knots

I think he was talking about being at anchor.

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Old 02-09-2013, 11:22   #234
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Re: Twenty Knots

Yep, at anchor or in a storm at sea, but anyway, most builders dont have any problem with standar mainsails , not even with standar spars, just Chris..

How this thing can perform in a monohull? or is just related to multis??
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:24   #235
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Re: Twenty Knots

I didn't want to wait for the delayed feed on Direct TV for the Red Bull Youth so I watched the Utube video on the Americas Cup website.

I particularly enjoyed the comment by the sportscaster/analyst Kenny Reed at about the 32:15 mark during the first race, "It's kind of fun to see an actual boat race again.....What a concept! It's great to see."
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:25   #236
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Re: Twenty Knots

1. 360 degrees? Wouldn't that just put it back in the same place?

2. The AC45 races yesterday were a pleasure to watch. Except, again for the coverage, where they keep, for some incredibly unreasonable reason (!) going back to showing the guys on the boats when the real story is the aerial view at the marks and in crossing situations. Enough of the guys with helmets on shots, show the races. Please. The can always show the helmet-heads when things are settled down.
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Old 03-09-2013, 19:07   #237
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Re: Twenty Knots

Billionaire death race: inside America's Cup and the world's most dangerous sailboat | The Verge
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:00   #238
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Re: Twenty Knots

thanks
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:27   #239
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If there is one aspect of this year's AC, it is the lack of secrecy. Sure, teams will be pulling surprises in what they have figured out - but they are practicing in plain site, the box rule is pretty stiff, and the boats are available often for complete viewing.
Ah yes, the lack of secrecy. Which is why the international jury just just spent a record amount of time (in the entire history of sailboat racing) trying to figure out how much to penalize the Oracle syndicate, even though the standard penalty for an RRS Rule #2 violation is automatic disqualification.

Number of Colemj posts so far, this thread: 66.

Current score:

Emirates: 0 (need 9 victories to win)
Oracle: -2 (need 11 victories to win)

And the racing hasn't yet begun.

Embarrassing.
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:33   #240
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Re: Twenty Knots

I think the America Cup has turned in to a joke. The people and money spent for this show is unreal. It is like going drag racing and watching the funny cars only and not the little people who spend their hard earned moery to race and place. I will stick with the little guy hands down. As far as these oversized Hobie Cats on steriods, well that is another story. I have sailed the bay and love to play in the Gap with my Ranger 22 a while back and now I sail the Gulf with 20+ winds daily. I have sailed for years around the Santa Cruze Island off Ventura with 60 knot winds and 30 foot seas and all was done by myself with no fear or worries. 20 knots is nothing and if these boats can not perform in all winds then they need to go back to real racing as it has been done for over a hundred years. If they want to make sailing competative then they have to open the classes and assign handicaps so more people can get involved. Limiting it to 2 or 3 boats is sad and takes away from the rest of the world. It should not be "How Much Money You Got" but rather Just How skilled you are with your boat so you and the boat are as one. Monohulls only should sail this course and hydrofoils and the other types should have their own class. I think with the proper handicap, a good windsurfer could win the thing over and he would have done so for less than 5K in equipment! Again it should be the sailor and not some billion dollar boat in these events. Lets make it a Iron Man Race with one sailor from each country racing! YEA!!!!
This is just my opinion, I am sure you have your own, so spill your guts.
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