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Old 26-08-2013, 14:43   #181
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
BTW Any idea what their AWA upwind/downwind are?

I am watching the whole thing on the y outube and at times we are shown their VMG, but never AWA nor AWS ;-(

The moment they bear off round the top mark ... freaking breathtakin'.

Cheers,
b.
In one of the races, the data graphics showed an AWA while going downwind on foil of 20*. At another point, the commentators once mentioned 23*. I suspect upwind AWA's are close to this, maybe 16-17*?

Off foil downwind, the AWA is probably a lot larger - maybe 30-35*?

That was the only time I have seen AWA's posted, so I suspect that might have either been a mistake or considered too esoteric for broadcasting.

The exact polars for each particular boat are probably considered secret.

Yes, when they go through that death zone bearing off, I am always holding my breath. Chris Draper on the Italian boat always looked like one of those people on the front car of a rollercoaster when doing that!

Mark
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Old 26-08-2013, 14:49   #182
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Re: Twenty Knots

Bring back the blue double breasted blazers...the snooty big old fashioned power boats lining the course...mandate wood only hulls and spars that must arrive on their own bottoms..long courses off shore....it must never be NASCAR...sails not fixed wings. It should be about tradition and skill and old money. That is Americas Cup.
Certainly these guys can build and race these boats..let them..why not its just not Americas Cup..its some other thing.
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Old 26-08-2013, 15:23   #183
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
In one of the races, the data graphics showed an AWA while going downwind on foil of 20*. At another point, the commentators once mentioned 23*. I suspect upwind AWA's are close to this, maybe 16-17*?

Off foil downwind, the AWA is probably a lot larger - maybe 30-35*?

That was the only time I have seen AWA's posted, so I suspect that might have either been a mistake or considered too esoteric for broadcasting.

The exact polars for each particular boat are probably considered secret.

Yes, when they go through that death zone bearing off, I am always holding my breath. Chris Draper on the Italian boat always looked like one of those people on the front car of a rollercoaster when doing that!

Mark

This was posted over at SA. He also had spreadsheets of the data linked there.

Hard for me to read on the graphs but the AWA for both upwind and downwind look to be between 20-25 degrees. Upwind tack angle 100 degrees, downwind jibe angle about 60 degrees.

RR2-1_NZL-ITA Photos by rustorey | Photobucket
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Old 26-08-2013, 16:51   #184
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Re: Twenty Knots

Good lord, where did he get all those data? I imagine it is all being broadcasted by telemetry to shore, but is it all unencrypted?

Probably doesn't matter in the Bay area anyhow - even homeless people there can probably slice through encryption like butter.

Mark
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Old 26-08-2013, 19:08   #185
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
In one of the races, the data graphics showed an AWA while going downwind on foil of 20*. At another point, the commentators once mentioned 23*. I suspect upwind AWA's are close to this, maybe 16-17*?

Off foil downwind, the AWA is probably a lot larger - maybe 30-35*?

That was the only time I have seen AWA's posted, so I suspect that might have either been a mistake or considered too esoteric for broadcasting.

The exact polars for each particular boat are probably considered secret.

Yes, when they go through that death zone bearing off, I am always holding my breath. Chris Draper on the Italian boat always looked like one of those people on the front car of a rollercoaster when doing that!

Mark
THX!

So the upwind AWA is not all that far from a mono just the tacking angle broader.

When we sailed a mono AC we could see AWA between 15 and 20 on the read-out.

I expected something like 30 degs downwind AWA by looking at the trim of the wing.

I believe they will cross the 50kts line in finals, maybe by a good couple of knots too.

These boats are far more like ice sailing than anything else ;-)

Cheers,
b.
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Old 26-08-2013, 20:53   #186
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
These boats are far more like ice sailing than anything else ;-)
I didn't think about that, and I think you nailed it. Growing up in Michigan, I am used to ice boat racing, which is nothing like liquid racing, but still widely accepted. That may also explain a lot of the complaints about this campaign.

BTW, did you notice during one of the upwind legs on the windy race the other day that NZ foiled upwind? I think they did not mean to let that out of the bag yet. I saw Oracle experiment with upwind foiling way out in a lonesome corner of the bay - the leeway is bad, but if they have the speed and the faster tacks from foiling, they may be able to find a sweet spot where it is superior to do so regardless of the broader angles.

In the finals, I think we may see some surprising stuff out of these boats and crews that hasn't been seen yet.

Mark
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Old 27-08-2013, 05:46   #187
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post

BTW, did you notice during one of the upwind legs on the windy race the other day that NZ foiled upwind?
Yep. Wider angle but much faster sailing. Can be of use if you want to power over a boat to your lee, but ahead of you, on you in upwind work.

I think extending the foil with another, vertical element, placed below the foiling element, will help them both foil and sail tighter angle, upwind. Maybe building one already.

No matter what they are up to in the finals, I hope to see some match racing. For now it is like we have much racing without matching!

Cheers,
b.
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Old 27-08-2013, 07:27   #188
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Re: Twenty Knots

I was watching one of the races here on TV, was between Italy and NZ,

The Camera's were on the boat. under the boat and on another boat beside it and by helicopter over head,

The Boats were doing 32 knots and 35 knots crossing the line,

They were doing 46 knots at one stage, Just before it was postponed due to high wind,

Absolutely Magic watching the NZ boat coming down to the Buoy and doing a U turn,

The whole time up on the foils,

Those things are going to fly once they master them,
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:43   #189
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Re: Twenty Knots

Just been watching a bit of a Louis Vuitton cup race



Very impressive speed, but like Formula One it's just a procession from the moment they crossed the line.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Old 27-08-2013, 16:10   #190
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I guess the promoters don't want anyone else to die and since these machines can "sail" at 40kts in 20kts of wind, they believe it's exciting enough for the viewers so they imposed the arbitrary limit. That's for the LV Cup. They may raise it a few kts. for the Americas Cup.

I'm with those that would rather see monohulls with "real" sails. These boats don't even have a spinnaker let alone fly one. This is not a race I can relate to other than the starting sequence. I know the techies love this stuff but what's next...computer chips that automatically adjust the wings and trim the sails to perfection based upon minute changes in wind speed and direction so that it's really all about whoever is manning the helm?

Regarding Bash's post, I don't see 20 kts very often since once a small craft advisory goes up the club doesn't let us charter. The only way it happens is if I happen to already be on the water when the wind picks up. The few times I've been in conditions like that we didn't reef. I would have reefed if the boat were heeling excessively, I couldn't lower the traveler any further to spill anymore wind, and/or I couldn't steer towards my destination effectively because the rudder is too far out of the water. I guess it would depend on the boat. Some stay on their feet better than others.
It is impossible for these boats to use a spinnaker. They are too fast. If you took away the foils they could fly a gennaker.
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Old 27-08-2013, 16:32   #191
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Re: Twenty Knots

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I suspect if the Kiwis won the cup we will see hig tech monohulls again, my 2 cents...
That's my hope. Something that puts the emphasis back on the racers, and doesn't require the participation of billionaires.

Thank goodness it's not going to be Prada vs Oracle. What used to be a race to promote friendly competition between nations is now a made-for-TV spectacle between corporations.

Meanwhile, we all await Friday's protest hearing to determine how many Oracle team members are disqualified, and how many races will be awarded to ETNZ before the first start.
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Old 27-08-2013, 17:02   #192
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Re: Twenty Knots

Is just a feeling after see a interview to Grant Dalton talking about this AC 2013 and posible the next one, one thing is for sure, this things are terrible expensive, and many teams dont have that budget, NZ is a monohull tradition country, even the NZt dont have experience in Multis prior this cup if i read well in the news, maybe im wrong, and to be honest the actual AC is a fiasco... So my guess is for a AC with big monos and back to cofee grinders and real sails, i think the maxi Rambler is able to sail at 20 something average , a wally is able to be fast yeahh, so i guess the next generation of monohulls can be faster than previous designs..

I just put my hope in the Kiwis, Ellison need a kick in thier egoass and lets see if we can see back this dudes with sunglasses and normal sailing tshirts and get rid off this lame helmets for sailing ... Just saying..
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Old 27-08-2013, 17:17   #193
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Re: Twenty Knots

In 2007, the monohulls were hitting 14 knots on the downwind leg with asymmetrical spinnakers and running a very high line similar to what a small racing catamaran would do.

They may go back to monohulls, and it will still be fast. (but) The boats may still break.

Folks should just sit back and enjoy while learning...................

They are simply heading in the same direction as they have been since the 1995 Americas Cup with their flat top mains which were being used before that time by the small racing catamaran sailor.

Also, in 2007 they had several battles in the prestart where they actually stopped on the starting line without going over and steering their boats with the sails just like small cat racers do on every start.

(But) They may just race catamarans again but do it better next time. Check the speed of this old Tornado. It's nearing 20 knots. Now look at the water. Not a lot of wind............11-12knots!

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Old 27-08-2013, 17:48   #194
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Re: Twenty Knots

I haven't followed the races (ever ) or this thread, but just looked at a little clip of one of them.

I am amazed. Maybe what I am going to say has been said - probably has.

If it has then just don't read it and consider the post a +1.

Leaving out the traditionalists, wasn't it always about the latest innovations in sails, boats and gear/hardware?

I think the future trickle-down would be cool. Didn't self tailing winches start with racers? The old boats had to have huge crews.

Now a 40 cat can cruise with just a few. How cool is that. "Otto" has been adopted by many sailing families.

Imagine good weather on a cruise where your phone app is steering (we all have autopilots now right?) and adjusting the (folding/reefable) wing. Just a matter of time (and money ).

I can't wait till one of my kids loads me and my wheelchair (stretcher?) on his boat and shows me a foiling trip from Tampa to the Dry Tortugas in under a day.

But then I am a cat guy. From the first time I saw one - A Heavenly Twins in a mag I could not afford to buy.

Go technology!
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:19   #195
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Re: Twenty Knots

Like Mark said

"Upwind in 20 knots I am already reefed, Main 1st reef, genoa 2nd reef.

Basically I start reefing at 17 knots on the deck upwind.

At 25-27 knots, solid, I am tucking in the second reef into the main".

Ding Ding for all, but I'm a little slower on the genoa.


But those AC boats are the MAX! Amazing technology, amazing skills, Amazing money,......and to think the bowman on one of the boats comes from a Yacht Club just down the lake of my home club in CDN.


Cheers
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