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Old 25-08-2013, 17:19   #166
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

All you've proved with the above is...
Dickheads exist outside of Congress and the Senate...
Note... no Ad Hominem there...
I believe this can be extended to cover most politicians in every country ....
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Old 25-08-2013, 17:43   #167
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Re: Twenty Knots

I sail a tri and still, at the beginning of the AC campaign to put the race in sf, I was pretty vocal about it being elitist... but then my 14 year old grandson asked me if I'd help him get a 'faster' boat. He was in Opti's and wanted to quit.

The need for speed has let a lot of kids slip away from boating and into other sports - I convinced him to try and build a foiler (he's almost done) and to please keep sailing - when we saw the first semi race in SF last year he started singing a completely different song. Oracle sent some of the youth crew to the Treasure Isl sailing club (where my grandson sails) and they did really great job as evangelists not just for the AC but for safe, sane (but fast) sailing in general.

It's easy to focus on the 'impractical' way that these boats are built but the stuff they are doing to get to the speeds they attain (47.3 kn yesterday!) (which requires incredible strength and good engineering) has already impacted cruising today, and made it safer and more fun!

(oh - who asked about reefing? The wingsails they use can't be reefed which is why they enforce the speed limit for the big cats, I have to reef my 31' tri in SF at 10kn because the gusts here can be to 25 - 30 kn in the mid afternoon on a regular basis and I like my mast and sails to stay on-board...)

FYI -- Isaiah's blog about his boat build is at www.flyingfishboats.co (it's his blog, not a commercial site)
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Old 25-08-2013, 17:50   #168
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I guess my point was that this sort of abuse has DEFINED the AC since almost the beginning. You just finally got fed up with it!
I think that's a fair assessment.

Perhaps my grievances aren't all that new. I guess that I finally reached my puking point.

My issues with the current state of this race can actually be broken down into 3 categories:

1) If you want to race cats, then call it a cat race. Call it the AC Masters Cat Cup or something like that, but just don't call it the America's Cup because that is something different. Calling this the America's Cup is like giving a tennis trophy to a guy with a cricket bat in his hand.

2) This is probably more in line with what the OP originally commented - If I had spent many millions of dollars on a boat & then paid a professional crew to sail it, I would be very embarrassed to find that the combination could not handle 20 knots. Either the boat isn't seaworthy or the crew is incompetent. Either way, an embarrassing purchase has been made. What are they going to do next to cover up this botched purchase? Are they going to spend another $500 million to build a giant wind tunnel so that they can control the environmental conditions & race in exactly 12 knots of breeze on flat water all day every day to keep things safe & perfect? Is that the future of the sport? I hope not. I like to see savvy sailors figure out how to overcome the little twists & turns that mother nature throws their way. To me, that's what sailing is. That's the heart of the sport. That's what keeps it interesting.

3) If you price the competition out of the game, then you don't really have much of a game left. What's next, the Rumpelstiltskin cup, where you can only race if your name is Rumpelstiltskin? Guess who's going to win that one - Mr. Rumpelstiltskin. There's a heck of a victory - I raced myself & won! Good going champ. You're #1 (out of 1). Hooo RAh! Pat yourself on the back & ignore your actual inadequacy.
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Old 25-08-2013, 17:52   #169
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
pbiJim,

I respect your opinion and am not arguing it.

I do point out that the sentiments and statements in your post have been made many, many times during the America's Cup competition since the 1800's.

For instance, only the rarified rich could afford a J-class boat, and only 4 of them ever showed up for defender trials in an AC campaign. Often it was fewer.

The New York yacht club used its political influence to "make up" rules that ensured the whole thing was swung strongly in their favor. It took Australia's winged keel and highly trained athletes to bring some resemblance of fair play back to the competition.

I have already pointed out that the wind speed limits imposed in this year's AC races are the same ones imposed in past year's mono AC races.

So the "people in charge" of the racing a century ago ensured that it will always be "a competition between a very few coddled individuals who have purchased the ability to avoid any actual competition from the vast majority of those in this world who may actually be better sailors".

My only disagreement in that point is that this year's sailors really are some of the best match racing sailors in the world and are rarified athletes who have earned their positions. It isn't fair to them to say otherwise just because you disagree with their ultimate rich bosses or the decisions of an organization they have no say in.

Just some perspective...

Mark
You got that exactly right. I'd give my left ama to be young enough to try out for the youth team - think about where the boats will be the next AC!
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Old 25-08-2013, 18:01   #170
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
I think that's a fair assessment.

Perhaps my grievances aren't all that new. I guess that I finally reached my puking point.

My issues with the current state of this race can actually be broken down into 3 categories:

1) If you want to race cats, then call it a cat race. Call it the AC Masters Cat Cup or something like that, but just don't call it the America's Cup because that is something different. Calling this the America's Cup is like giving a tennis trophy to a guy with a cricket bat in his hand.

2) This is probably more in line with what the OP originally commented - If I had spent many millions of dollars on a boat & then paid a professional crew to sail it, I would be very embarrassed to find that the combination could not handle 20 knots. Either the boat isn't seaworthy or the crew is incompetent. Either way, an embarrassing purchase has been made. What are they going to do next to cover up this botched purchase? Are they going to spend another $500 million to build a giant wind tunnel so that they can control the environmental conditions & race in exactly 12 knots of breeze on flat water all day every day to keep things safe & perfect? Is that the future of the sport? I hope not. I like to see savvy sailors figure out how to overcome the little twists & turns that mother nature throws their way. To me, that's what sailing is. That's the heart of the sport.

3) If you price the competition out of the game, then you don't really have much of a game left. What's next, the Rumpelstiltskin cup, where you can only race if your name is Rumpelstiltskin? Guess who's going to win that one - Mr. Rumpelstiltskin. There's a heck of a victory - I raced myself & won! Good going champ. You're #1 (out of 1). Hooo RAh! Pat yourself on the back & ignore your actual inadequacy.
The more things change the more they stay the same? This isn't the first multihull/monohull debate -

1876-amaryllis-was-the-first-racing-catamaran
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Old 25-08-2013, 18:51   #171
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Re: Twenty Knots

I think the boats are great and they are a huge leap forward.

It looks now like the Kiwis will be hard for the US team to beat. I mean without lead or lawyers.

I wonder if future generations of VOR, VG or Mini will sport foils. Or maybe VOR and VG will go multi (a.k.a. the dark side) too?

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Old 25-08-2013, 19:11   #172
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Re: Twenty Knots

20 knots is a light breeze in San Francisco Bay. With reefing, my Hudson Force 50 is very comfortable with those winds. I did have one day at Point Concpetion where due to multiple failures during the shakedown cruise I was unable to reef and I took a beating with full sails in 35 knots of wind. It was not fun. Had I been able to reef, it would have been a brisk ride.
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Old 25-08-2013, 19:20   #173
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Re: Twenty Knots

When thinking about this issue, do remember that on windward legs the APPARENT wind that these boats are getting is on the order of 60 knots when the true wind is 20.

How many of you chaps denigrating these boats and sailors have EVER gone to windward in 60 apparent? Makes it seem a bit more challenging IMO!

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Old 25-08-2013, 20:13   #174
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Re: Twenty Knots

I suspect if the Kiwis won the cup we will see hig tech monohulls again, my 2 cents...
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Old 25-08-2013, 20:19   #175
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I suspect if the Kiwis won the cup we will see hig tech monohulls again, my 2 cents...
I suspect so too (and think there is a very good chance they will win). However, I don't think we will be seeing slow boats having long tacking duels on offshore courses and running spinnakers downwind (really, it is goodbye spinnakers permanently now - no one is that slow to be able to use them anymore).

I also think the primary players involved will be stinking rich, flout tradition, the boats will be built to ridiculous specs and technology and there will be technical problems throughout with the boats.

In other words - just like this one! Except the multi haters will be happy.

Mark
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Old 25-08-2013, 20:49   #176
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Re: Twenty Knots

If they race in NZ, They will want to be able to sail in strong winds, Hahahaha
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Old 26-08-2013, 03:55   #177
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by medicrene View Post
20 knots is a light breeze in San Francisco Bay. With reefing, my Hudson Force 50 is very comfortable with those winds. I did have one day at Point Concpetion where due to multiple failures during the shakedown cruise I was unable to reef and I took a beating with full sails in 35 knots of wind. It was not fun. Had I been able to reef, it would have been a brisk ride.
That's great but I doubt your boat would break 25 knots in 10-15 knots of breeze like these boats...........
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Old 26-08-2013, 04:44   #178
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Re: Twenty Knots

Apples and oranges........
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Old 26-08-2013, 05:44   #179
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Re: Twenty Knots

So where has many people's inner 12 y.o. gone?

They dont just go fast, they fly and are 40m tall !

Agreed that they have been pricey but perhaps as Colemj has suggested that will drop with development.

Agreed they aren't that reliable but Australia II broke twice and i believe broke some rigging the next time out after the last race...

Back to the inner 12 y.o.

Can we add some extra strengthening and some computer aided control and foil across the atlantic single handed?
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Old 26-08-2013, 13:33   #180
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
(...) to windward in 60 apparent? (...)
BTW Any idea what their AWA upwind/downwind are?

I am watching the whole thing on the y outube and at times we are shown their VMG, but never AWA nor AWS ;-(

The moment they bear off round the top mark ... freaking breathtakin'.

Cheers,
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