Too Deep Anchorages ???

[Stu Jackson]

I rarely copy long quotes, but his one is priceless. I just moved from SF to BC. BIG difference. No windlass.

Yet.

This is why.

SAFETY. What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The big hole in your contention that your manual windlass to be more reliable than an electric one is that most electric windlasses have the ability to be operated manually if the electric motor fails. So that makes them just as reliable as yours, at least in their manual mode.

As for speed, while I understand that in most conditions, it doesn't really matter how quickly your chain comes in, there are times when it's a real plus to be able to do it quickly, or to be able to send someone else forward to simply step on the switch to operate the windlass and pull in the chain while you remain at the helm taking the pressure off your windlass motor and making sure you don't drift into other nearby boats or a nearby ledge. Take the situation where you anchor in 30' of water at low tide. Where I live that means you'll have 40' at high tide and with the anchor roller 5' above the waterline (assuming 5:1) you'll probably have out about 225' of anchor rode. If you have to suddenly leave the anchorage with the wind blowing 40 knots, how are you going to accomplish that singlehanded? Unless you're a close relation to Popeye and you just dined on spinach, you'll be pretty exhausted by the time you use your manual windlass to pull your boat up to a point just over your anchor in 40 knots of wind, and assuming your anchor comes free at about 2:1 scope, that means you'll have about 75'-90' of anchor chain to (quickly, quickly) get in before your boat drifts into something you don't want it hitting. In this instance, the faster speed of an electric windlass IS a factor because you'll drift twice as far in twice the time it will take you to get your anchor up to your bow roller. I've had a 35' boat with no windlass except a pair of well worn work gloves so I can appreciate how a manual windlass would be a big step up from that, but a faster, easier to use electric windlass is yet another step up in convenience and safety. Not saying everybody should have one, but I do recognize the advantages they provide.

[valhalla360]

To loop back around to the original question:

Where are these alternative ICW anchorages that are 30-50' deep?

[mikedefieslife]

My windlass failed recently, (in fact it was broke from the start), so I'd been looking for very shallow anchorages around 2-5m.

I did anchor in around 12m, and what a pain that was. My anchor is 25kg, and 8mm chain is 2kg per meter, so I has hauling 50kg by hand for the last part. Much deeper and I doubt I'd have been able to lift it.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'll happily challenge any of you electric windlassers to a fully manual contest.

Look, I know everyone (including me) wants to feel right about their choice. I think my manual is virtually bullet proof, and this makes me feel safer than relying on something that depends on wiring and battery power. Mine can be easily maintained and repaired by any idiot (like me). Other people will value different things and come to different conclusions. That's fine. This is why there is almost never one right answer for every cruising question.

The best you could hope to do is tie in your imagined contest, and that's only if the electric mode failed and your opponents windlass was reduced to manual mode so he'd be cranking away just like you would be. Or are you suggesting your opponent voluntarily not use his electric motor and that your muscles will prevail over his? The low gear ratio on my electric windlass makes it pretty easy to hand crank but I'll grant you it IS slow so your manual one might well be a bit faster than mine in it's manual mode. But that's sort of like asking me to bring just a knife to a gunfight. I might bring a knife and that knife might be somewhat inferior to your knife, but as Indiana Jones so clearly demonstrated to us all, DON'T EVER bring a knife to a gunfight because no matter how superior your knife or knife fighting skills are, you'll lose.

A below decks electric motor that just goes round and round isn't exactly hard to maintain and if it or your electric system does fail so it's unusable in it's electric mode, then the required maintenance on the above decks parts is exactly like the maintenance on your manual windlass, just try to keep the salt off it and clean and grease the gears and bearings often enough to keep the gunk to a minimum and you're good to go. I'm curious about what other maintenance do you imagine electric windlass users engage in that you don't? We all have our toothbrush, solvent, and lube and have to use them periodically on our windlass or invite problems. So, the electric windlass in manual mode is just as bulletproof/safe as yours is and a properly installed one in it's normal electric mode is about 99% as bulletproof.

By the looks of your photo, you were probably born in the 50's like I was so we can both well remember the days when anything electric on a boat was about as likely to fail on any given day as it was to work correctly. Nothing was solid state like it is now and the sealants used to protect the electrics typically soon dried up and allowed in the water which led to certain failure. There were lots of electrical connections constantly trying to vibrate loose or corrode and stop working, leaving you to guess which one was the culprit so minimizing complicated electrical items that had many failure points and were difficult to troubleshoot was super important. So I understand where you get your skepticism about depending on all stuff electrical in a marine environment. But over the last couple of decades, sealants have gotten much better and so has the way marine electrics are built. The most common and easiest example to understand is the simple lightbulb. In the old days, not a week went by when I didn't find a light that wasn't working even though it was supposedly in a sealed enclosure or was below decks in a dry area. Usually, it was a simple matter to just open it up and move the lightbulb slightly or clean the contacts or replace the bulb if it was burned out. Pretty easy to fix but it was a waste of time and sort of annoying to never really KNOW if a light was going to work when you turned it on, and potentially dangerous if you NEEDED that light to see something important immediately or to let someone else know your position. But now we have electric bulbs (LED's) that are entirely sealed with no contacts to corrode and nothing to adjust and they also last MUCH MUCH longer than any conventional bulb, at which time you just replace the whole unit. I'm gradually losing my old habit of looking to see if the light actually came on when I flip the switch on my boats exterior lights because all the LED's come on every single time I ask them to because all connections are sealed and there are no "moving parts" or filaments to burn out. But I understand old habits die hard and sometimes I still just have to go look to see if the LED nav light on my transom actually came on.

About the only disadvantage I can see to an electric windlass is the additional cost to purchase and properly install it and I agree that certainly is a valid consideration, but when weighed against the added convenience and, most importantly, the increased margin of safety in a situation like I described in my most previous post, I think it's pretty easy to understand why most cruisers opt for an electric windlass despite the disadvantage of added cost.

[Kenomac]

Don't get too comfortable with your LED external light bulbs. We had a short in one of the nav light sockets and it took out all the bulbs including the tricolor at the top of the mast. So nearly $100 worth of bulbs went poof and I had to go up the mast to replace it with an incandescent. LEDs apparently don't like a power surge.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

To loop back around to the original question:

Where are these alternative ICW anchorages that are 30-50' deep?

Unfortunately, I don't think you are very likely to have your question answered the way you'd like because for all but just a very few areas of the ICW it's not even that deep in the center of the channel and once you get out of the channel, it's almost always much less than 30' deep, often shallow enough so you could get out and walk ashore. From south Florida all the way up to the Chesapeake it's very shallow, and there are only a few areas down around Ft Lauderdale where it's a bit deeper, but I'd be very interested/surprised if anyone can point out even a single 30'+ deep anchorage along the ICW south of Virginia.

[hellosailor]

Don't ever bring a knife to a gunfight? That was Roy Rogers and Lone Ranger logic, when a six-shooter could fire twenty or thirty times without reloading. Today in Special Forces they like to remind you "A knife never runs out of bullets." Ain't obsolete and useless yet. The user, not the tool, is what makes the difference.

Same thing with LED assemblies. (I can't call them bulbs. I just ordered 170 grams at the deli counter because they can't measure six ounces any more.) While LEDs are very voltage sensitive, like all electronics, a properly engineering LED assembly WILL include overvoltage protection. Current restriction. And yes, even surge protection. Of course all those extra components will double the price, and the mass niche market of sailors, like any mass market, ain't gonna buy a product that looks the same but costs twice as much.
Got instruments and electronics (as opposed to electrical) on your boat? Got a surge protector and overvoltage protection on the breaker that feeds them? No? Why not? The folks who make the electronics say they don't build them in, because it raises the cost, and when those extra components fail, it just adds to the overall failure rate. But they also freely concede that surges and spikes are the #1 killer of ALL electronics on boats.

Windlass? Same thing as knives and LEDs. The windlass is just a paperweight, unless the user has chosen the right one for their purposes and skills. And that's not going to be the same for everyone.

[Mike OReilly]

Believe what you will JT. I've seen more than my share of dysfunctional electric windlasses, and read about even more online. Heck, without prompting we've already had two or three stories emerge here. And there's almost always an active thread on the subject.

I appreciate the benefits of electric tools. But in my opinion, and for my uses and my boat (a 15 tonner btw), I think my manual is superior. If you think otherwise, so be it.

And yes, my challenge is to you using your electric in manual mode. Since a key part of your point is that you have the best of both worlds, then I say prove it. Most electrics can theoretically be operated manually, but that's not how they're designed (why would they be?). I've never seen one that would operate efficiently in manual mode.

Like I said earlier, this speed argument is silly b/c it's a never-ending continuum. If your electric is twice as fast as my manual, does this mean I'm in twice the potential danger? If so, are you in twice the danger compared to someone else who has a windlass that runs 2x faster than yours? What then is the right retrieval speed? I'm dying to know...

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Don't get too comfortable with your LED external light bulbs. We had a short in one of the nav light sockets and it took out all the bulbs including the tricolor at the top of the mast. So nearly $100 worth of bulbs went poof and I had to go up the mast to replace it with an incandescent. LEDs apparently don't like a power surge.

Yeah, short circuits will definitely do them in, and LED replacement bulbs are susceptible to the same corroded contact points and bad connections/shorts in sockets that incandescent or fluorescent bulbs are. But sealed LED units like I used to replace the nav light on my transom have no sockets to accidentally short out, making the likelihood of what you experienced much lower. Of course to completely eliminate that risk you have to replace all the lights on that circuit and take care to not go blundering around behind your electrical panel with a screwdriver like I once did.

The point I was trying to make using LED lights is that modern technology has removed many of the weaknesses that guided our decision making process in the past so we can constantly reevaluate what technology is reliable enough to use on our boats (or vehicles or homes). 30 years ago, I bet your remember that almost nothing electrical worked correctly when you turned it on in the spring after 8 months in storage, and now it's very rare for anything to not just start right up like you just used it yesterday. So, way back then, I too was pretty skeptical of adding anything that used electricity on my boat. But I've gradually come around to having much more confidence that they will work pretty much as advertised. So while I realize that it's still possible to have a short circuit or internal failure in any electrical device, I feel more comfortable than I used to in depending on them. As another example, even the steering in one of my cars is now electrical, something that would have scared me to death 30 years ago, especially when you consider what a steering malfunction could mean with 150mph+ closing speeds in a head on situation! But now I drive that car and just take it for granted that when I turn the wheel, the car will go precisely where I want it to (and it does, better than anything else I've ever driven!), just like my old car that depended on hydraulics or my even older car that used an entirely mechanical connection to the steering or before that my great grandfathers "car" that depended on having the correct rein pulled in just the right way. Technology is ever changing so its potential for being useful to us aboard is also ever changing, just like in every other area of our lives.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Believe what you will JT. I've seen more than my share of dysfunctional electric windlasses, and read about even more online. Heck, without prompting we've already had two or three stories emerge here. And there's almost always an active thread on the subject.

I appreciate the benefits of electric tools. But in my opinion, and for my uses and my boat (a 15 tonner btw), I think my manual is superior. If you think otherwise, so be it.

And yes, my challenge is to you using your electric in manual mode. Since a key part of your point is that you have the best of both worlds, then I say prove it. Most electrics can theoretically be operated manually, but that's not how they're designed (why would they be?). I've never seen one that would operate efficiently in manual mode.

Like I said earlier, this speed argument is silly b/c it's a never-ending continuum. If your electric is twice as fast as my manual, does this mean I'm in twice the potential danger? If so, are you in twice the danger compared to someone else who has a windlass that runs 2x faster than yours? What then is the right retrieval speed? I'm dying to know...

Since you're "dying to know" I'll tell you how fast and the answer is FAST ENOUGH to not get it snagged on something else or your boat dragging down on something behind you before you can get your anchor aboard.

Actually, a decent electric windlass is probably MORE than twice as fast as your manual one but of course I never suggested that makes it twice as safe. How could anyone realistically hope to quantify safety in that way? As you say, that would be silly but it was you making that silly assertion, not me.

What I said was that once your anchor breaks free from the bottom, time is of the essence until you get it on it's bow roller where it can't snag anything because you will immediately start drifting (fast) and in 40 knots of wind in a crowded anchorage or on a lee shore that obviously be very bad. So rather than attempting to trying to twist twice as fast to necessarily mean twice as safe, why not address that scenario I posed where you are singlehanded or have only a not very strong or nautically savvy companion aboard your boat and you wake up to 40 knot winds and another boat (or two) dragging down on you so you need to get out of its way ASAP and get your anchor aboard so you don't snag any of the other boats anchor rodes or other underwater obstructions in the process. With my electric windlass I would first start my engine, then I could use the cockpit remote to raise my anchor as I used the boats steering and engine to take pressure off the rode and once my anchor was off the bottom I would continue to steer and modulate throttle to move forward as slowly as possible until I saw the anchor in its roller. If my remote didn't work for some reason and I was singlehanded, I'd have to run back and forth between the bow and helm but once my anchor was no longer holding me stationary, I'd be able to get the anchor on deck at least twice as fast as you could, thus I would drift half as far as you would during this part of the process. That time differential might mean all the difference in whether I successfully get out of that tight spot or get snagged on someone else's anchor rode or mooring, etc. or hit a ledge. If we were both in that same situation with my remote not working and only an experienced and not very physically strong companion aboard to help us, I would take him/her forward and point out how to remove the snubber and where the foot switch was to raise the anchor, and what simple hand signals we'd use, and I would go back to the helm and gradually motor up over the anchor to keep the pressure off the windlass as my inexperienced and physically weak helper retrieved the anchor. In this scenario, how would you handle getting out of that harbor safely with your manual windlass? You couldn't entrust an inexperienced helper to properly helm your boat in a "ticklish situation" situation such as this and you certainly couldn't ask them to go forward and do the hard work of operating that manual windlass while you remained at the helm. It seems to me that your only realistic option would be to let out your remaining chain and buoy your anchor rode and leave it behind. IF there was room behind you to do that, it would be safe, but not much of a testament to the capability of your manual windlass.

In my previous post I already conceded that in manual mode you could probable get your anchor up quicker than I could but it's not true that all electric windlasses are all that bad in their manual mode. I love the oversize vertical electric windlass I have now but it's true that it's limited in its manual mode by the mechanical advantage built into the length of the proprietary handle you must use. Of course I could pretty easily have the handle modified if I thought I needed to. But my previous windlass was set up so that to operate it in manual mode you simply inserted any winch handle in the top of it so you could gain mechanical advantage by using a longer winch handle, or even one of those battery powered (horrors!) electric winch handles if you happened to have one aboard.

So, 40 knots, crowded anchorage with boats dragging down on you and maybe a ledge or other boats behind you, singlehanded or only limited ability crewmember aboard, and it's time to leave ASAP. I've explained how I'd use my electric windlass a with its remote control and/or limited ability crew to escape. Now, help me understand how you'd use your manual windlass to extract yourself from that same situation?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Since you're "dying to know" I'll tell you how fast and the answer is FAST ENOUGH to not get it snagged on something else or your boat dragging down on something behind you before you can get your anchor aboard.

Actually, a decent electric windlass is probably MORE than twice as fast as your manual one but of course I never suggested that makes it twice as safe. How could anyone realistically hope to quantify safety in that way? As you say, that would be silly but it was you making that silly assertion, not me.

What I said was that once your anchor breaks free from the bottom, time is of the essence until you get it on it's bow roller where it can't snag anything because you will immediately start drifting (fast) and in 40 knots of wind in a crowded anchorage or on a lee shore that obviously be very bad. So rather than attempting to trying to twist twice as fast to necessarily mean twice as safe, why not address that scenario I posed where you are singlehanded or have only a not very strong or nautically savvy companion aboard your boat and you wake up to 40 knot winds and another boat (or two) dragging down on you so you need to get out of its way ASAP and get your anchor aboard so you don't snag any of the other boats anchor rodes or other underwater obstructions in the process. With my electric windlass I would first start my engine, then I could use the cockpit remote to raise my anchor as I used the boats steering and engine to take pressure off the rode and once my anchor was off the bottom I would continue to steer and modulate throttle to move forward as slowly as possible until I saw the anchor in its roller. If my remote didn't work for some reason and I was singlehanded, I'd have to run back and forth between the bow and helm but once my anchor was no longer holding me stationary, I'd be able to get the anchor on deck at least twice as fast as you could, thus I would drift half as far as you would during this part of the process. That time differential might mean all the difference in whether I successfully get out of that tight spot or get snagged on someone else's anchor rode or mooring, etc. or hit a ledge. If we were both in that same situation with my remote not working and only an experienced and not very physically strong companion aboard to help us, I would take him/her forward and point out how to remove the snubber and where the foot switch was to raise the anchor, and what simple hand signals we'd use, and I would go back to the helm and gradually motor up over the anchor to keep the pressure off the windlass as my inexperienced and physically weak helper retrieved the anchor. In this scenario, how would you handle getting out of that harbor safely with your manual windlass? You couldn't entrust an inexperienced helper to properly helm your boat in a "ticklish situation" situation such as this and you certainly couldn't ask them to go forward and do the hard work of operating that manual windlass while you remained at the helm. It seems to me that your only realistic option would be to let out your remaining chain and buoy your anchor rode and leave it behind. IF there was room behind you to do that, it would be safe, but not much of a testament to the capability of your manual windlass.

In my previous post I already conceded that in manual mode you could probable get your anchor up quicker than I could but it's not true that all electric windlasses are all that bad in their manual mode. I love the oversize vertical electric windlass I have now but it's true that it's limited in its manual mode by the mechanical advantage built into the length of the proprietary handle you must use. Of course I could pretty easily have the handle modified if I thought I needed to. But my previous windlass was set up so that to operate it in manual mode you simply inserted any winch handle in the top of it so you could gain mechanical advantage by using a longer winch handle, or even one of those battery powered (horrors!) electric winch handles if you happened to have one aboard.

So, 40 knots, crowded anchorage with boats dragging down on you and maybe a ledge or other boats behind you, singlehanded or only limited ability crewmember aboard, and it's time to leave ASAP. I've explained how I'd use my electric windlass a with its remote control and/or limited ability crew to escape. Now, help me understand how you'd use your manual windlass to extract yourself from that same situation?

All you're doing is playing "what if" games. There is no such thing as certainty in cruising or in life. You seem to need to prove your choice is better than mine. Who are you trying to convince?

I hope your choice is the best for you. I think a manual is best for me for all the reasons already mentioned, but if you think otherwise, that's fine. I'm sure an electric is superior in some circumstances. I'm equally sure it is a liability in others. My balance says I'm better off with my manual.

[sailorboy1]

I'm going to have to place this thread I started on ignore

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I'm going to have to place this thread I started on ignore

Yes, sorry Don. My bad ... I'll quit the silly debate now. Back to deep water anchorages on the ICW.

[Jim Cate]

Mike (sorry Sailorboy, but I think your thread has morphed irrevocably), I'll add that the manual "override" on our Maxwell 1200 and the "improved" 1500 VWC electric windlass is simply a joke. Absolutely useless! If we can't use it in electric mode, it's back to chain hooks lead to cockpit winches... tedious but effective.

I had two different manual windlasses on I-one, and the first, a S-L Hyspeed was pretty poor. The second, a Maxwell two speed was much better, and we used it for around 15 years. Had to replace a Sprague clutch or two, but it never outright died on us.

The Maxwell VWCs have worked well enough, except that they have some dissimilar metal corrosion issues, and I've had serious problems with parts being eaten away to the point of failure. Now that I'm warned, I know to watch out for this problem, but it is an expensive PITA to deal with.

I bet your old manual ain't got any aluminium bits lurking in it!

Jim

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

All you're doing is playing "what if" games. There is no such thing as certainty in cruising or in life. You seem to need to prove your choice is better than mine. Who are you trying to convince?

I hope your choice is the best for you. I think a manual is best for me for all the reasons already mentioned, but if you think otherwise, that's fine. I'm sure an electric is superior in some circumstances. I'm equally sure it is a liability in others. My balance says I'm better off with my manual.

I haven't been trying to prove that you or anyone else should necessarily have an electric windlass, but it does give you some nice options that having no windlass or a manual windlass doesn't. Remember my earlier post where I said my windlass on a previous boat amounted to no more than a pair of work gloves and I got by that way OK for a few years? I just think it's important, no matter what equipment your boat happens to have at the time, whether it be my pair of work gloves, your manual windlass, or my current electric windlass, to have a clear headed understanding of the advantages AND limitations of each choice. When I had no windlass, I understood that there were situations that if I were singlehanding, I'd have to buoy my rode and leave it behind because there was just no way I could pull it in against a strong wind so I'd have to pull it in like crazy then run back to the helm to put it in gear to get more slack and then dash forward to pull in more rode before the boat drifted back but there's a limit to the conditions where that works and it would be pretty easy to hurt yourself too. I tried to plan accordingly but always knew that my choice of a lack of mechanical windlass of any kind meant I couldn't do what those who had a manual or electric windlass could do. Similarly, in response to your contention that your manual windlass was more reliable and therefore safer than an electric windlass, I've been trying to point out to you that there are certain situations where your manual windlass doesn't give you the same options that an electric one with a remote control would and that could put your in a position where you'd be less safe or have to leave your anchor behind because it would be impossible for you (shorthanded) to be both helming your boat and manually cranking in almost 100' of anchor rode before you drifted into another boat or snagged something with your anchor as you drifted through the anchorage while slowly cranking it in manually. I don't really think it's a very controversial statement to make and you could have simply acknowledged that and said "oh yeah but luckily situations like that don't arise very often where I sail and if I did get stuck in that situation I'd leave my anchor and come back to get it later" or "I always have a good helmsman aboard who can keep me off the rocks and away from other boats in strong winds while I'm slowly cranking in my chain," but instead you'd made the contention that YOUR windlass was more reliable and therefore also safer than electric ones and it's taken you about 2 pages of posts to finally accept that there was ANY situation where that's not true even when I think I pretty clearly illustrated that windlass speed or the ability to operate it remotely while helming your boat sometimes IS a factor that contributes to safety. Instead of acknowledging that there are conditions where speed in getting your anchor on the roller can contribute to safety you wanted to quibble about twice as fast being twice as safe and other silliness, etc. Oh well...

As for thread drift, the thread was started by someone looking to anchor in the ICW in deep water, which of course is impossible because there isn't any deep water in a ICW anchorage, and barely anything close to deep water even in the middle of the channel. So the subject of deep water anchoring in the ICW is bound to be a very short discussion. The reasons everyone else anchors where they do in the ICW is because in most places you are lucky to find even 10' so you take what you can get. There is no such as what the OP is looking for, deep water ICW anchorages that all others have somehow overlooked.