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Old 28-08-2013, 21:15   #91
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Originally Posted by Wrong View Post

Following a cursory inspection in the Dominican Republic, one of the guys who'd come aboard said "Now, how about something extra for me"? My reply was that I'd already paid enough and nobody was going to get a cent more.

His response? He extended his hand to shake and thanked me saying, you're my friend.

Why do you suppose he did so? It is because he was possibly testing me, to see if I'd fold like other cruisers who'd too readily greased palms. Maybe he wants to see this kind of behaviour on the part of both official and cruiser disappear.

I also escaped having to pay bribes to not just one, but two naval employees in Bali simply by saying no. How many cruisers are prepared to do this? There is always a risk the person you are refusing can make your life difficult, but saying no until it appears this is the case is worth trying. Doing otherwise simply feeds the system.

I have said in most posts that I believe the primary source of the problem stems from the ill conceived notion by cruisers they have to pay something extra in order to receive fair value for their money. To receive the kinds of service people are already paid to deliver.
Good for you, Wrong, sticking to your principles. Besides, it makes me look better when I come along and tip. Just kidding. Maybe.

My best bud in the world feels much the same as you. I, on the other hand, am sometimes intimidated into tipping or feel uncomfortable because I don't know the local practice. I love it that someone like you has the balls to stand up to social pressure. Don't let anyone change your mind, (well, I'm sure that's not likely to happen). We need people like you in this world.

Mostly, I tip as a show of respect, whether the service is great or just good. That's just me.
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Old 29-08-2013, 07:11   #92
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Wrong, do you not know how to read??? Should I type slower for you??.
Yeah, I read slow to make sure I understand what is being said/claimed...

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Originally Posted by fishin4bogey View Post
My post very clearly said if there are others scheduled ahead of me, BUT AREN'T THERE YET ( that's the important part) they will throw my boat in the water beforehand. There are several reasons for this...one is if you schedule your launch for 0900, but don't show up till noon, your boat has been taking up valuable space for three hours. Other boats may be delayed because there is no room to launch.
Also the launch pad sits between two buildings where there is little if any breeze. In the hot south Florida sun it routinely clears 110 degrees at the pad by 10 am. When I return they help me get everything in order, so my boat goes back on the rack. They don't have to let me flush my outboard, but they do. I don't pay anyone to "get ahead" in life, I give tips because it is my way of saying Thank You. Most of the time a thank you is more than enough. Other times we throw someone a few bucks. In almost every job I've had I've gotten tips. Sometimes it a tall glass of cold water, and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

Please make sure you feed your high horse....[/QUOTE]

Right. What you said. You did not say the people were late. Read what you said again. So, they are scheduled for 09:00 and you show at 08:30, slip the guy a $20 bill to get launched ahead of the folks scheduled at 0:900. So what if your boat is still in the sling at 09:00 when the other people show. They are delayed while you get the benefit of having greased the lift operator's palm. You said nothing until jumping on my post suggesting what you do is justified " if you schedule your launch for 0900, but don't show up till noon."

Different by a long shot.
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Old 29-08-2013, 07:41   #93
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Look at it a different way; it shouldn't be a practice to tip anyone for something you're paying for. I take my business elsewhere. There's the "cult of tipping". Tip the trash guy, tip the mailman (for being a clod) tip the paperboy. Where does it end?
And there's that moral outrage I was talking about...

If the reality is such that the wages these service people are paid is low based on the fact that they receive tips, then what? Don't tip b/c they are already being paid? But their pay is based on the cultural reality that they receive tips. So you are a one-person protest whose affects are to harm those who are already the most vulnerable. The owners aren't affected and don't care.

Most people in low-level service industries are paid below poverty rates, in part b/c they can make it up with tips. I fully agree with you that service people should be payed a living wage, but then that would make your diesel more expensive and your burgers pricer ... and then people would complain about that. Unless you're saying the owners and shareholders (many of whom are us) should take lower profits. Now there's the real answer.

There is a real problem with working poor all over the world. It is fundamentally unjust. But not tipping where a tip has become the norm only hurts the servers. Plus, it ignores local cultural realities.
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Old 29-08-2013, 08:11   #94
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

Tipping is not a city in China. I think it is an acronym for To Insure Prompt Service. Which used to be the valet parking your car at a fancy restaurant or to get seated quickly by the maitre d in a good place. Many service industry people recognized this and take advantage of human nature to pay a lower wage knowing that the customer will pick up the slack. Save your outrage for the people paying sub par wages. Oh wait, if they don't pay sub par wages then they cannot offer things at a lower price thus outraging the cliental (Us). So it comes full circle. So if you wish to tip then tip, if you don't then don't. The people on the receiving end of those tips are trying to feed and house their families too.
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Old 29-08-2013, 08:22   #95
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Wrong, you really can't read, can you. My post, once again, says if others are scheduled, and "not there yet", they will put my boat in first. Went back and re-read my original post, and yes, it's still there.
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Old 29-08-2013, 08:38   #96
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Wrong, you really can't read, can you. My post, once again, says if others are scheduled, and "not there yet", they will put my boat in first. Went back and re-read my original post, and yes, it's still there.
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Old 29-08-2013, 09:01   #97
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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And there's that moral outrage I was talking about...

If the reality is such that the wages these service people are paid is low based on the fact that they receive tips, then what? Don't tip b/c they are already being paid? But their pay is based on the cultural reality that they receive tips. So you are a one-person protest whose affects are to harm those who are already the most vulnerable. The owners aren't affected and don't care.

Most people in low-level service industries are paid below poverty rates, in part b/c they can make it up with tips. I fully agree with you that service people should be payed a living wage, but then that would make your diesel more expensive and your burgers pricer ... and then people would complain about that. Unless you're saying the owners and shareholders (many of whom are us) should take lower profits. Now there's the real answer.

There is a real problem with working poor all over the world. It is fundamentally unjust. But not tipping where a tip has become the norm only hurts the servers. Plus, it ignores local cultural realities.
If you are buying a service, like having a waiter bring your meal instead of picking it up yourself at a counter - and you know in advance tipping the waiter is the norm - then leaving a tip is the right thing to do. Whether the tip is small or large depends upon your ability to tip more, or less, and the quality of service you receive.

If you are buying something that becomes yours upon payment, and you are required to leave handling the something to a clerk, attendant or whatever before you can pay and take possession - and tipping is not the norm - then don't tip. An attendant is provided to fill your fuel tank is probably a case of the fuel depot wanting to avoid spills and to collect payment. It is in their best interest and not necessarily yours. What the attendant is paid is not normally something you'll know - so no moral dilemma there.

On the one hand you are expected to tip, regardless of what the server is being paid by the employer. Something you typically won't know anyway. On the other you cannot help yourself without an intermediary being involved - who will or will not be the person you pay for the item. Unless informed otherwise, you are not expected to tip in this situation. Regardless of what the intermediary is being paid. Again, something you typically will not know. No moral dilemma involved.

Whether or not a person is being paid fairly is a question to be considered between the employer and employee.

Me thinks you may be over-analyzing here, eh?
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Old 29-08-2013, 09:20   #98
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

Tipping can benefit you. Let me give an example from personal exp. This is something I like to do every couple of weeks or so.

There is a restaurant and bar down the street from my house. Local place. If you want to order food to go, they won't let you take a seat at a table. You are ushered to the bar and place your order, pick it up and leave. I find that bar crowded and don't feel like waiting around standing up. Some time ago, I asked the girl in the restaurant if I could place my order to go while sitting at the restaurant and before she could tell me policy, I let her know that I would take care of her (in advance) by giving her a 10 dollar bill. She said sure. Typically, people don't tip on a to go order, so asking a favor that is not typical policy that will only ask them to work for you, yet get no pay is a stretch. I order (same always) 1 bowl of cream of crab to go, 1 bowl of md crab to go and a guiness with a side of jameson. Same order every time. Comes to like 30 bucks, I drop 10. Now, I go in there, she (or others who know me) ask if I'm having the same after clearing a table and asking me if that table is ok. Point is. I get a more comfortable place to wait around for my food, they get paid for doing something they don't have to do. We are all happy. Nobody shows up to work to go without getting paid. Pretty simple. We each get what we want. They get paid and I get to be comfortable. Pretty simple and fair.

Try tipping good before you get service when doing some sort of group function or at a crowded bar. You will be amazed at how well you get taken care.

I don't fancy night clubs anymore, but at one time in my life I did. I would go in with a group of people into a club that was 3 deep at the bar. You would wait sometimes 15 min to get a drink. After the first round, I would drop a 20 and ask if they could open a tab, then gave them my credit card. Any time I would go back to the bar for another drink, they would see me behind other people and I would get what I needed and go back to my group. Fair? Maybe not, but life is not fair. If you want something, you must often pay for it. I wanted faster drinks and no waiting. Anyone else could have done the same if they wanted faster drinks and no waiting.

I'm no rich, but I understand how things work and if I'm willing to pay the price for it, I get it. If I am not willing or can't pay the price for what it is that I want, I don't get it. It's that simple.
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Old 29-08-2013, 10:06   #99
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Originally Posted by Wrong View Post

If you are buying a service, like having a waiter bring your meal instead of picking it up yourself at a counter - and you know in advance tipping the waiter is the norm - then leaving a tip is the right thing to do. Whether the tip is small or large depends upon your ability to tip more, or less, and the quality of service you receive.

If you are buying something that becomes yours upon payment, and you are required to leave handling the something to a clerk, attendant or whatever before you can pay and take possession - and tipping is not the norm - then don't tip. An attendant is provided to fill your fuel tank is probably a case of the fuel depot wanting to avoid spills and to collect payment. It is in their best interest and not necessarily yours. What the attendant is paid is not normally something you'll know - so no moral dilemma there.

On the one hand you are expected to tip, regardless of what the server is being paid by the employer. Something you typically won't know anyway. On the other you cannot help yourself without an intermediary being involved - who will or will not be the person you pay for the item. Unless informed otherwise, you are not expected to tip in this situation. Regardless of what the intermediary is being paid. Again, something you typically will not know. No moral dilemma involved.

Whether or not a person is being paid fairly is a question to be considered between the employer and employee.

Me thinks you may be over-analyzing here, eh?
Hmmm, I'm not sure who's over-analyzing he Wrong... But I think we're sort of agreeing: tip when it's the norm, don't when it's not. You don't have to worry about all your back flips about a necessary intermediary or whose interest they are serving. You just have to take the time to observe local custom. Simple.

You're right, of course, that as travellers (and yes, I do travel a bit, even though I have not sailed far yet) we don't know all the customs and practices. But that's true of the whole breadth of the cultural experience. If you're a respectful traveller (as I know we all are) then you figure it out.

But I do have to take issue with your final statement about it all being between the employer and the employee. That is wilful ignorance on your part Wrong. That's like saying western consumers have no responsibility when it comes to sweatshops in Bangladesh, or yes, crappy wages paid to people who pump our gas. You're 'out there'. You can see what our "Lowest Price ... At any cost" culture is doing to workers everywhere.
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Old 29-08-2013, 10:17   #100
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Quote:
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If you are buying a service, like having a waiter bring your meal instead of picking it up yourself at a counter - and you know in advance tipping the waiter is the norm - then leaving a tip is the right thing to do. Whether the tip is small or large depends upon your ability to tip more, or less, and the quality of service you receive.

If you are buying something that becomes yours upon payment, and you are required to leave handling the something to a clerk, attendant or whatever before you can pay and take possession - and tipping is not the norm - then don't tip. An attendant is provided to fill your fuel tank is probably a case of the fuel depot wanting to avoid spills and to collect payment. It is in their best interest and not necessarily yours. What the attendant is paid is not normally something you'll know - so no moral dilemma there.

On the one hand you are expected to tip, regardless of what the server is being paid by the employer. Something you typically won't know anyway. On the other you cannot help yourself without an intermediary being involved - who will or will not be the person you pay for the item. Unless informed otherwise, you are not expected to tip in this situation. Regardless of what the intermediary is being paid. Again, something you typically will not know. No moral dilemma involved.

Whether or not a person is being paid fairly is a question to be considered between the employer and employee.

Me thinks you may be over-analyzing here, eh?
But I can't go get the meal from the kitchen myself, and it becomes mine upon payment?

If I understand you correctly, tipping is only valid when other people determine that a service has value, and one must only follow that norm? It has nothing to do with how much you appreciate their service, or how little they get paid?
Funny world where the people who pump out the remnants of a hundred meals you ate deserve to get paid less than the one who brings you one
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Old 29-08-2013, 10:20   #101
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Coming from a non tipping country I find it strange that it is necessary to bribe someone to do the job that they have chosen to do. Surely by promoting tipping you are encouraging businesses to pay their staff less and less on the basis that you will make it up in tips. Great for the business I guess by lowering the relevant payroll taxes or superannuation contributions or whatever they have but not so good for the staff.
NZGrant
I worked in the restaurant industry for 9 years before joining the Navy. In the US minimum wage for servers (at that time) was $2.31/hr, I understand it's gone way up to $3.35/hr. Servers live off of tips and in most cases have to report earnings of a minimum of 8% of their sales on their taxes. Restaurants have done this for years for two reasons: to keep food costs down to attract customers and to motivate servers to do the best job possible.

Just my two cents.
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Old 29-08-2013, 11:08   #102
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

[QUOTE=Mike OReilly;1325643
But I do have to take issue with your final statement about it all being between the employer and the employee. That is wilful ignorance on your part Wrong. That's like saying western consumers have no responsibility when it comes to sweatshops in Bangladesh, or yes, crappy wages paid to people who pump our gas. You're 'out there'. You can see what our "Lowest Price ... At any cost" culture is doing to workers everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Mike,

*Inequity in pay between folks doing the same job bothers me.
*C.E.O.s making what they do when people who actually produce what a corporation sells find it difficult to make ends meet on their income bothers me.
*Sweat shops, slavery, sexual abuse of every imaginable kind, poverty, disease, malnutrition, on and on bother me.

So, if I am unaware people around me are suffering from any of these things that bother me - that makes me wilfully ignorant? As guilty as the perpetrators?

I've worked in crappy, low benefit, low reward jobs. I've witnessed police abuse. Every day, I am voluntarily made aware of things I have no control over, simply by reading the news. By so doing, although I am not ignorant of these things, does that make me or anyone else responsible for them? Surely you are old enough, experienced enough to know there is little we can do to influence the perpetrators, let alone change things for those who suffer because of them.

When is the last time you had any effect on changing the agreements between workers and employers? For that matter, how successful have been your own attempts to change things that matter to you in your own place of employment? The questions are only posed to illustrate a point. You may have been pretty successful, but I expect most people are not. Neither do most people even have the nerve to approach their employer with requests for better pay, working conditions and more. They are afraid of losing hours or being fired.

I'm not going to attract the rabid capitalists by saying anything more than unionism in this country contributed to better working conditions, pay and benefits for many. In kind, these advances improved conditions for many others - mainly through legislation. The sad fact is, there seems to be an erosion of what was gained, too many set backs for workers in America.

So, what has this got to do with whether or not paying a tip is or is not appropriate?

I think that's been settled. If the norm culturally, or within a particular industry is to tip, then tip. If not, don't

You pretty much hit the nail on the head when you speculated my main concern, also shared by you, is that boaters who are loose with their money will inevitably make the cost of cruising rise beyond our abilities to pay.

Sorry to inform you, but the upward trend in costs for cruising have pretty much accomplished that already. You'll discover this for yourself, soon enough.
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Old 29-08-2013, 11:19   #103
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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Funny world where the people who pump out the remnants of a hundred meals you ate deserve to get paid less than the one who brings you one
Damn, how big is your holding tank?
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Old 29-08-2013, 11:29   #104
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

Completely agree with Mike.
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Old 29-08-2013, 11:59   #105
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Re: Tipping the guys at the marina?

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But I can't go get the meal from the kitchen myself, and it becomes mine upon payment?
Guess you could ask if it is o.k. to get your own meal in order to avoid paying a tip, if that's what you prefer. Pretty stingy though, don't you think? Won't work very well in places that add a percent to your tab. You can also go to a different restaurant where no table service is provided. You can also try walking out without paying. Then you'll know the meal, whether already eaten or not isn't yours until paid for. Dare you.

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If I understand you correctly, tipping is only valid when other people determine that a service has value, and one must only follow that norm? It has nothing to do with how much you appreciate their service, or how little they get paid?
You can decide that for yourself. You can stay in bed or get up. Make sure you ask everywhere you go how much people are paid so you can make an objective evaluation though. Pretty foolish to assume everyone is low paid and needs tips. You may find them giving your tip back because they have been insulted.

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Funny world where the people who pump out the remnants of a hundred meals you ate deserve to get paid less than the one who brings you one
If this is the case where you work, take your complaint to your employer. If you dare.
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