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Old 20-06-2013, 07:44   #211
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Originally Posted by mikepmtl View Post
It would be cool to have a feature (not that hard to make actually) that if a certain percentage of people that have participated in a thread choose to close it it gets closed.

I think it would prevent a lot of dead horses from being whipped.

I announced with great confidence that Wed. (yesterday) was the "pick day" to sail around west central Florida.

So much for predicting the weather. at 12:30 PM there was a waterspout hanging from an ugly cloud between two major bridges that cross Tampa Bay. That storm did form inland, and as it happens, the waterspout was not in an area sailboats can access ... but it formed.

As I was leaving Venice, FL, there was a thunder-laden cloud (don't know if it was actually a significant storm or not) to the south of me. I was going north -- but it looked like that one made it to the Gulf.

They really can't be predicted here, especially in the summer -- only dealt with. The best solution is, if you're along the coast, pull in early each day.
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Old 20-06-2013, 08:25   #212
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I announced with great confidence that Wed. (yesterday) was the "pick day" to sail around west central Florida.

So much for predicting the weather. at 12:30 PM there was a waterspout hanging from an ugly cloud between two major bridges that cross Tampa Bay. That storm did form inland, and as it happens, the waterspout was not in an area sailboats can access ... but it formed.

As I was leaving Venice, FL, there was a thunder-laden cloud (don't know if it was actually a significant storm or not) to the south of me. I was going north -- but it looked like that one made it to the Gulf.

They really can't be predicted here, especially in the summer -- only dealt with. The best solution is, if you're along the coast, pull in early each day.
I wouldn't freak out too much about waterspouts. They move very slowly and are easy to avoid. I've dodged plenty of them. They are short lived and do not pack violent winds. I've never heard of a boat being damaged by one.

Here's what Wiki says about them:

"Waterspouts that are not associated with a rotating updraft of a supercell thunderstorm are known as 'non-tornadic' or 'fair-weather waterspouts', and are by far the most common type. Fair-weather waterspouts occur in coastal waters and are associated with dark, flat-bottomed, developing convective cumulus towers. Waterspouts of this type rapidly develop and dissipate, having life cycles shorter than 20 minutes.[7] They usually rate no higher than EF0 on the Enhanced Fujita scale, generally exhibiting winds of less than 30 m/s (67 mph).[8] They are most frequently seen in tropical and sub-tropical climates, with upwards of 400 per year observed in the Florida Keys.[9] They typically move slowly, if at all, since the cloud they are attached to is horizontally static, being formed by vertical convective action instead of the subduction/adduction interaction between colliding fronts.[9][10] Fair-weather waterspouts are very similar in both appearance and mechanics to landspouts, and largely behave as such if they move ashore."

Waterspout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Waterspouts are associated with "towering cumulus" or "turkey tower" clouds. These clouds can look ugly (or beautiful, depending on your point of view), but they are not storm clouds. They generally don't produce even much precipitation, much less any kind of stormy weather. They form exactly because a convective cap is dissipating in a harmless way, rather than building up to produce a storm.

If you see a waterspout, it's actually a pretty good sign of decent sailing weather. So I would say that your original prediction turned out to be correct.


One little nit to pick with you -- you wrote "As I was leaving Venice, FL, there was a thunder-laden cloud (don't know if it was actually a significant storm or not) to the south of me." How can you not know if something is a significant storm or not? Don't you check the weather before going out? It is absolutely essential to know whether there are significant storms approaching before putting out to sea. But in this case, since you saw a waterspout, you can be sure that it was not only not a significant storm, but no storm at all. Unless it was an extremely rare tornadic waterspout, but in that case, there would have been severe storm warnings, school closings, etc., etc., well ahead of time -- as a tornadic waterspout requires a supercell in order to form -- a large-scale catastrophic event affecting large areas.


Why are tornadoes like what we have on land so rare over water? Simple -- land heats up fast and forms a layer of hot air over it easily. This layer of hot air, under a higher layer of colder air, is what forms the thermal inversions which cause tornadoes and many other kinds of storms. Water absorbs solar energy intead of heating up and forming a layer of hot air, so thermal inversions are much harder to form. This is the major difference between land weather and sea weather, and the reason why real sea storms are very different from land storms.
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Old 20-06-2013, 09:14   #213
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I wouldn't freak out too much about waterspouts. They move very slowly and are easy to avoid. I've dodged plenty of them. They are short lived and do not pack violent winds. I've never heard of a boat being damaged by one.

Here's what Wiki says about them:

"Waterspouts that are not associated with a rotating updraft of a supercell thunderstorm are known as 'non-tornadic' or 'fair-weather waterspouts', and are by far the most common type. Fair-weather waterspouts occur in coastal waters and are associated with dark, flat-bottomed, developing convective cumulus towers. Waterspouts of this type rapidly develop and dissipate, having life cycles shorter than 20 minutes.[7] They usually rate no higher than EF0 on the Enhanced Fujita scale, generally exhibiting winds of less than 30 m/s (67 mph).[8] They are most frequently seen in tropical and sub-tropical climates, with upwards of 400 per year observed in the Florida Keys.[9] They typically move slowly, if at all, since the cloud they are attached to is horizontally static, being formed by vertical convective action instead of the subduction/adduction interaction between colliding fronts.[9][10] Fair-weather waterspouts are very similar in both appearance and mechanics to landspouts, and largely behave as such if they move ashore."

Waterspout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Waterspouts are associated with "towering cumulus" or "turkey tower" clouds. These clouds can look ugly (or beautiful, depending on your point of view), but they are not storm clouds. They generally don't produce even much precipitation, much less any kind of stormy weather. They form exactly because a convective cap is dissipating in a harmless way, rather than building up to produce a storm.

If you see a waterspout, it's actually a pretty good sign of decent sailing weather. So I would say that your original prediction turned out to be correct.


One little nit to pick with you -- you wrote "As I was leaving Venice, FL, there was a thunder-laden cloud (don't know if it was actually a significant storm or not) to the south of me." How can you not know if something is a significant storm or not? Don't you check the weather before going out? It is absolutely essential to know whether there are significant storms approaching before putting out to sea. But in this case, since you saw a waterspout, you can be sure that it was not only not a significant storm, but no storm at all. Unless it was an extremely rare tornadic waterspout, but in that case, there would have been severe storm warnings, school closings, etc., etc., well ahead of time -- as a tornadic waterspout requires a supercell in order to form -- a large-scale catastrophic event affecting large areas.


Why are tornadoes like what we have on land so rare over water? Simple -- land heats up fast and forms a layer of hot air over it easily. This layer of hot air, under a higher layer of colder air, is what forms the thermal inversions which cause tornadoes and many other kinds of storms. Water absorbs solar energy intead of heating up and forming a layer of hot air, so thermal inversions are much harder to form. This is the major difference between land weather and sea weather, and the reason why real sea storms are very different from land storms.

You missed my point (and, by the way, I already posted about waterspouts being extremely weak, etc., etc., etc.). They don't form from a clear blue sky.

There was supposed to be a very low chance of thunderstorms yesterday, but there was a storm strong enough to form a waterspout over Tampa Bay around noon and I left one in my rear view mirror as I drove home from Venice about 7PM (don't know anything about that storm, whether it was nothing or whatever).

We can't avoid them. Even the standard wisdom to start and end the day early at this time of year wouldn't have helped in Tampa Bay today. As Blue Crab said, learn to deal with it.
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Old 20-06-2013, 09:15   #214
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Another Great Lakes sailor here. I watch my barometer and pay attention to my body. If my ears pop we pull all canvas except a scrap to help balance the helm and turn on the diesel. I have a weather station that alarms to rapidly changing conditions too but my arthritic joints and sensitive ears are my first queues.
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Old 20-06-2013, 09:35   #215
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Originally Posted by mikepmtl View Post
It would be cool to have a feature (not that hard to make actually) that if a certain percentage of people that have participated in a thread choose to close it it gets closed.

I think it would prevent a lot of dead horses from being whipped.
Great idea! Whoever starts a thread should have the ability to close it as there gets to be a point where the BS factor goes out of control..... This post may be one of them :>)
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Old 20-06-2013, 09:39   #216
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Great idea! Whoever starts a thread should have the ability to close it as there gets to be a point where the BS factor goes out of control..... This post may be one of them :>)

Oh my gosh you've posted BS here? YOU? Where? I want to read it again!
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Old 20-06-2013, 09:40   #217
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pirate Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?


Dead easy to close a thread

Not so easy to avoid the resulting ban...


An expert....

Which brings to mind... Any news on Saucy (Scouse) Sailor... now there's a 'Mod'.... ban me any day of the week xox
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Old 20-06-2013, 10:00   #218
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

The larger, more dangerous tornadoes the midwest and south fear so much are different creatures that *never* form over water. But we have plenty enough to worry about if we're in a storm that could have done that over land. That's why this thread was so active (except for the few who wanted to bicker and pick).

I think "voting to close a thread" is ... interesting. But what if all those who were tired of it just walked away? Wouldn't that be good enough? Why can't the ones who think it's necessary to exert their will like that over others just ... leave that thread?
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Old 20-06-2013, 10:15   #219
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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You missed my point (and, by the way, I already posted about waterspouts being extremely weak, etc., etc., etc.). They don't form from a clear blue sky.

There was supposed to be a very low chance of thunderstorms yesterday, but there was a storm strong enough to form a waterspout over Tampa Bay around noon and I left one in my rear view mirror as I drove home from Venice about 7PM (don't know anything about that storm, whether it was nothing or whatever).

We can't avoid them. Even the standard wisdom to start and end the day early at this time of year wouldn't have helped in Tampa Bay today. As Blue Crab said, learn to deal with it.
Sorry, it was you who missed my point. Entirely.

If you saw a waterspout, then you can be sure there were no thunderstorms, because they don't form from storm clouds and don't form in the conditions where you have thunderstorms. Waterspouts are good signs of reasonably benign weather.

Waterspouts form when hot and cold air are changing places by normal convection, which is what causes towering cumulus clouds. These clouds may look ugly, but they do not cause storms. They hardly even cause rain.


I'm excluding tornadic waterspouts formed out of all-hell-breaks-loose supercells, but that is definitely not what you were having (stories of the devastation would have been in the New York Times this morning).
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Old 20-06-2013, 10:28   #220
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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I guess that means I didn't answer the right mystery question.
I wrote a long reply trying to explain what I said and quoting what 777 asked and what you answered.

I deleted it because I ended by saying something you have said to me (and others) before and it sounded just................not right.
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Old 20-06-2013, 10:31   #221
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Sorry, it was you who missed my point. Entirely.

If you saw a waterspout, then you can be sure there were no thunderstorms, because they don't form from storm clouds and don't form in the conditions where you have thunderstorms. Waterspouts are good signs of reasonably benign weather.

Waterspouts form when hot and cold air are changing places by normal convection, which is what causes towering cumulus clouds. These clouds may look ugly, but they do not cause storms. They hardly even cause rain.


I'm excluding tornadic waterspouts formed out of all-hell-breaks-loose supercells, but that is definitely not what you were having (stories of the devastation would have been in the New York Times this morning).

No, I didn't miss your point. My point was that the weather was supposed to be GREAT yesterday. Did you see the cloud that formed that waterspout? It was black, and rainy, and it wouldn't have been a pleasant sail. Then there was the thunderstorm south of Venice.

My point wasn't to try to catch someone in a mistake (and then, perhaps, call it "bs") but to point out that Florida weather in the summer is inherently unpredictable, and that Blue Crab was right, that part of sailing is learning how to handle storms.

You really don't need to explain water spouts to me, having grown up in Florida with a father who knew a lot about weather. You also don't need to explain tornadoes to me, having lived for 35 years in tornado alley. I remember when meterologists INSISTED that hurricanes couldn't spawn tornadoes. That's a third kind.

Even the land-based tornadoes are rarely very big in Florida. Much ado was made about 10 days about about a tornado in Gulfport. It was there. it knocked part of a tree on the porch of a restaurant. the restaurant was open the next day. Not exactly Joplin, MO or Moore, OK.

Yesterday *should* have been the "pick day" of the week for sailing, and actually it was, here, but if you weren't in by 7PM off Venice you might have been in a bit of a pickle, because Venice Inlet can be treacherous, and that storm did extend to the coastal waters.

I have NEVER claimed that waterspouts are terribly dangerous. This is something you just decided I believe. They're weak and short-lived (the one on Tampa Bay yesterday lasted about 8 minutes). But it didn't appear out of a calm, blue sky.

By the way, waterspouts CAN form as part of a thunderstorm. At least Dr. Greg Forbes says so, but he's no Wikipedia. it would not have been a pleasant sail yesterday near that waterspout, which was attached to foul weather. Waterspouts: 6 Things You Didn't Know - weather.com

Winds of 80 - 100 mph can do a lot of damage to a boat, and they can be spawned by thunderstorms. They actually are a sign of seriously unstable weather, at least in your immediate vicinity, and IMO shouldn't be trivialized. There's a guy at the club who CLAIMS a waterspout did a lot of damage to a boat he had, including taking the mast off, but he was probably just BS-ing, right ...
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Old 20-06-2013, 10:49   #222
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Re: Thunderstorm While Coastal Cruising. What do you do?

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Even the land-based tornadoes are rarely very big in Florida. Much ado was made about 10 days about about a tornado in Gulfport. It was there. it knocked part of a tree on the porch of a restaurant. the restaurant was open the next day. Not exactly Joplin, MO or Moore, OK.
The week before last, two tornado's blew through east Sarasota, Lakewood Ranch and out to Arcadia. They may not have been very large by mid-west standards but they destroyed quite a great deal of property including, just north of SR 70, a barn owned by some folks we are acquainted with, injuring their horses, one so severely, the animal had to be put down then and there. IMHO there are no inconsequential tornadoes unless they occur in areas completely free of human habitation.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:17   #223
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The week before last, two tornado's blew through east Sarasota, Lakewood Ranch and out to Arcadia. They may not have been very large by mid-west standards but they destroyed quite a great deal of property including, just north of SR 70, a barn owned by some folks we are acquainted with, injuring their horses, one so severely, the animal had to be put down then and there. IMHO there are no inconsequential tornadoes unless they occur in areas completely free of human habitation.
There is a type of waterspout which is like a land tornado, formed by supercells just like tornados. It's called a "tornadic waterspout"; it's formed by the same type of cloud as a land tornado. It's extremely rare because water doesn't heat up lime land does.

Ordinary waterspouts (99.9% of them) are more like dust devils than tornados. Peak winds are typically about 50 knots. They do not suck up water. They are not particularly dangerous. Unlike land tornados, which are always dangerous.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:26   #224
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No, I didn't miss your point. My point was that the weather was supposed to be GREAT yesterday. Did you see the cloud that formed that waterspout? It was black, and rainy, and it wouldn't have been a pleasant sail. Then there was the thunderstorm south of Venice.

My point wasn't to try to catch someone in a mistake (and then, perhaps, call it "bs") but to point out that Florida weather in the summer is inherently unpredictable, and that Blue Crab was right, that part of sailing is learning how to handle storms.

You really don't need to explain water spouts to me, having grown up in Florida with a father who knew a lot about weather. You also don't need to explain tornadoes to me, having lived for 35 years in tornado alley. I remember when meterologists INSISTED that hurricanes couldn't spawn tornadoes. That's a third kind.

Even the land-based tornadoes are rarely very big in Florida. Much ado was made about 10 days about about a tornado in Gulfport. It was there. it knocked part of a tree on the porch of a restaurant. the restaurant was open the next day. Not exactly Joplin, MO or Moore, OK.

Yesterday *should* have been the "pick day" of the week for sailing, and actually it was, here, but if you weren't in by 7PM off Venice you might have been in a bit of a pickle, because Venice Inlet can be treacherous, and that storm did extend to the coastal waters.

I have NEVER claimed that waterspouts are terribly dangerous. This is something you just decided I believe. They're weak and short-lived (the one on Tampa Bay yesterday lasted about 8 minutes). But it didn't appear out of a calm, blue sky.

By the way, waterspouts CAN form as part of a thunderstorm. At least Dr. Greg Forbes says so, but he's no Wikipedia. it would not have been a pleasant sail yesterday near that waterspout, which was attached to foul weather. Waterspouts: 6 Things You Didn't Know - weather.com

Winds of 80 - 100 mph can do a lot of damage to a boat, and they can be spawned by thunderstorms. They actually are a sign of seriously unstable weather, at least in your immediate vicinity, and IMO shouldn't be trivialized. There's a guy at the club who CLAIMS a waterspout did a lot of damage to a boat he had, including taking the mast off, but he was probably just BS-ing, right ...
Of course waterspouts can form as part of a thunderstorm - provided it is a huge frontal thunderstorm which is part of a supercell. That's a "tornadic waterspout" - extremely rare, but as destructive as a land tornado. That's what Dr forbes is talking about. Winds do not reach those speeds in ordinary waterspouts. To create that kind of waterspout you have to have a mesocyclone, just like a land tornado. Major frontal system, widely forecast. They don't come from nowhere.

Could be what took the mast off your acquaintance's boat - they're rare, but do occur -- or maybe it fell down by itself - I have no idea.
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Old 20-06-2013, 15:03   #225
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As the original poster to this thread I want to say sincerely that I have learned a lot. I know feel like I know what to do when I encounter a non-front thunderstorm moving east from the water towards me on the ocean 3-6 miles off the coast of Florida. And it was great to hear from other Florida sailors. To make a passage Oceanside on the east coast between Government Cut and Ponce Inlet (I sail out of Ft. Pierce inlet) one must monitor the weather closely and calculate the ocean passage time between inlets. Start early in the morning year round but be specially conscious during the May-October season. If one does have a thunderstorm bear down on them: 1. Don't panic 2.) passengers below 3.) batten down hatches 4.) man the helm and don some handy goggles or even a snorkel mask 5.) clip in/Pfd 6.) drop main sail 7.) reef jib 8.) start motor before lightning comes 9.) either motor east straight into the storm if you have searoom 10.) Better yet, turn southeast and run with the storm off your aft quarter. 11.) enjoy the ride.

As for the few posters who opined critically of sailors younger than them or on those facing fears at sea, I simply say:
to have courage is not the absence of fear- it is persevering through the fear and completing the task. Fear is minimized with experience and knowledge. Those who have no fear are not showing courage because there is no courage in the absence of fear. Those who truly feel no fear, even when prudence or reasonable caution is appropriate either have a schizoid/sociopath personality disorder(they don't feel anything except numb or angry), are clinically depressed and don't care anymore, or are drunk and alone. Gen'l Custer had no fear but others who looked to him for leadership died as a result of his 'courage'. Give me a prudent captain to follow anyday either in war or in peacetime.

Thanks to all who shared their helpful comments!
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