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Old 15-12-2015, 22:26   #166
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Re: There is no Planet B

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No. I admit that your logic eludes me. Are you trying to say that "global warming" may turn out to be a bad call twenty years from now?

Don't you think the carbon taxes will still be collected anyway, just like the conservation taxes on petroleum still are? I sure do!
Come on, ryon. I'm sure you can understand that things like tar sands in Canada, deep water wells, and new natural gas fields opened up by fracking weren't even a thing 40 years ago. Like, not even conceivable at the time. With those innovations, new reserves came online within the last 10-20 years which extended our usable fossil fuels by several decades if not centuries, assuming their extraction continues to be economically viable.

At least with the issue of burning fossil fuels, one thing is for certain .. CO2 levels will continue to rise. Whether or not global warming is a consequence of that shouldn't even matter. Our oceans' chemistry is changing.
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Old 15-12-2015, 22:26   #167
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Re: There is no Planet B

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I will stick with my sculling oar which works incredibly well giving me 1.5 knots with the same effort as riding a bicycle.
Got a picture of your sculling oar in action? I have a pair of oars for my Columbia 29 and they work just fine in flat calm water, I think I can get 1.5 knots but I'd only bet on 1 right now. I need to work out a little more. We need a thread about engineless cruising.
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Old 15-12-2015, 22:40   #168
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Re: There is no Planet B

Can I scull my Hudson Force 50?

So question/point is that technogy solved the Peak Oil panic....but for some reason the MMGWC don't think technology will solve the pollution problem?

Hmmm....who is a science Denier now?
Because the one constant is human innovation and technological advancement, yet do they build that into their modles of doom? Nope...no research grant money down that path.
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Old 15-12-2015, 22:41   #169
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Perhaps this can be addressed by a modest proposal . Nothing like classic literature to remind us that there is nothing new under the sun.
Nice reference, however, there is indeed something new under the sun. There are now 6,400,000,000 more people on this planet than there were in 1739. More than 1000 percent increase.
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Old 15-12-2015, 23:05   #170
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Nice reference, however, there is indeed something new under the sun. There are now 6,400,000,000 more people on this planet than there were in 1739. More than 1000 percent increase.
And.....so what?
The Population Bomb myth/hype said we would already all be dead. This little thing call technology means we don't use horses to pull our plows.
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Old 15-12-2015, 23:07   #171
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Re: There is no Planet B

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We might just be the first species responsible for its extinction.



In the end the fossil fuel age will be much shorter that the stone age, bronze age and iron age.

The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Think about that for a moment...



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Old 15-12-2015, 23:52   #172
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Re: There is no Planet B

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The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Think about that for a moment...



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It also didn't end due to a stone tax or regulation, it ended when something better came along.
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Old 16-12-2015, 00:00   #173
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Come on, ryon. I'm sure you can understand that things like tar sands in Canada, deep water wells, and new natural gas fields opened up by fracking weren't even a thing 40 years ago. Like, not even conceivable at the time. With those innovations, new reserves came online within the last 10-20 years which extended our usable fossil fuels by several decades if not centuries, assuming their extraction continues to be economically viable.

At least with the issue of burning fossil fuels, one thing is for certain .. CO2 levels will continue to rise. Whether or not global warming is a consequence of that shouldn't even matter. Our oceans' chemistry is changing.
Do I detect the smallest doubt that global warming should matter?

I understand that energy production technology has advanced, and that the dire predictions of peak oil did not happen. I understand that you have no idea whether the Earth will warm, or cool, or remain the same. I understand that there are opportunistic people who would love to sell us their solutions for their perceived problems. And I understand that they have no qualms against using government to force us to pay for them, even when we don't want to go along with their brilliant plans.

[Cough, Solyndra]

With any luck at all, technology and the free market will save us again during the next twenty years. If the taxers, luddites, and hand-wringing reactionaries don't find a way to poke another stick in its spokes.
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Old 16-12-2015, 00:22   #174
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Can I scull my Hudson Force 50?
I don't know if you can but I'm sure I would be able to. I sculled in and out of morro bay. In such places you only use the scull to manoeuvre as the tidal current takes you, so on a 40 ton boat it is also still possible to scull everywhere but speed through water is reduced to .75 knots (very strong person) so usually even less with only one human power. Of course on such a ship you should have always 2 or 3 people to work which would allow for faster speeds.
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Old 16-12-2015, 00:25   #175
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Can I scull my Hudson Force 50
depends on how fit the crew is
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Old 16-12-2015, 06:46   #176
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Re: There is no Planet B

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There is no Planet B
Forget climate change. Really. It's probably the least of our problems.

Anyone cross an ocean lately and not notice a bunch of garbage floating in the water? Anyone see significant price drops lately for things like teak or tuna? Anyone take an antibiotic lately?

I'd be curious to know if people who do not believe humans can effect climate change also believe we are incapable of rendering our blue marble uninhabitable through other means?
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Old 16-12-2015, 07:33   #177
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Can I scull my Hudson Force 50?

So question/point is that technogy solved the Peak Oil panic....but for some reason the MMGWC don't think technology will solve the pollution problem?

Hmmm....who is a science Denier now?
Because the one constant is human innovation and technological advancement, yet do they build that into their modles of doom? Nope...no research grant money down that path.
The is grant money for such projects.

Carbon Capture and Storage Research | Department of Energy
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Old 16-12-2015, 07:34   #178
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Re: There is no Planet B

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
It also didn't end due to a stone tax or regulation, it ended when something better came along.
And there are better energy sources than fossil fuels.
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Old 16-12-2015, 07:36   #179
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Re: There is no Planet B

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The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Think about that for a moment...



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OK - time's up.
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Old 16-12-2015, 07:41   #180
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Re: There is no Planet B

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With any luck at all, technology and the free market will save us again during the next twenty years. If the taxers, luddites, and hand-wringing reactionaries don't find a way to poke another stick in its spokes.
Advocates of capitalism understand that it cannot account for waste by-products - please note I did not say pollutant.

A home construction company cannot simply dump the excess biodegradable lumber into a ditch.

The fossil fuel industry seems to get a free ride because its waste is odorless and invisible.
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Garret Hardin, a strong advocate of private property, in his landmark essay The Tragedy of the Commons (1968)

In a reverse way, the tragedy of the commons reappears in problems of pollution. Here it is not a question of taking something out of the commons, but of putting something in--sewage, or chemical, radioactive, and heat wastes into water; noxious and dangerous fumes into the air, and distracting and unpleasant advertising signs into the line of sight. The calculations of utility are much the same as before. The rational man finds that his share of the cost of the wastes he discharges into the commons is less than the cost of purifying his wastes before releasing them. Since this is true for everyone, we are locked into a system of "fouling our own nest," so long as we behave only as independent, rational, free-enterprisers.

The tragedy of the commons as a food basket is averted by private property, or something formally like it. But the air and waters surrounding us cannot readily be fenced, and so the tragedy of the commons as a cesspool must be prevented by different means, by coercive laws or taxing devices that make it cheaper for the polluter to treat his pollutants than to discharge them untreated. We have not progressed as far with the solution of this problem as we have with the first. Indeed, our particular concept of private property, which deters us from exhausting the positive resources of the earth, favors pollution. The owner of a factory on the bank of a stream--whose property extends to the middle of the stream, often has difficulty seeing why it is not his natural right to muddy the waters flowing past his door. The law, always behind the times, requires elaborate stitching and fitting to adapt it to this newly perceived aspect of the commons.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Milton Friedman, the grand daddy of capitalism, in 1979

Phil Donahue: Is there a case for the government to do something about pollution?

Milton Friedman: Yes, there’s a case for the government to do something. There’s always a case for the government to do something about it. Because there’s always a case for the government to some extent when what two people do affects a third party. There’s no case for the government whatsoever to mandate air bags, because air bags protect the people inside the car. That’s my business. If I want to protect myself, I should do it at my expense. But there is a case for the government protecting third parties, protecting people who have not voluntarily agreed to enter. So there’s more of a case, for example, for emissions controls than for airbags. But the question is what’s the best way to do it? And the best way to do it is not to have bureaucrats in Washington write rules and regulations saying a car has to carry this that or the other. The way to do it is to impose a tax on the cost of the pollutants emitted by a car and make an incentive for car manufacturers and for consumers to keep down the amount of pollution.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

From the American Enterprise Institute - Wednesday, April 22, 2015

"Momentum is building on both sides of the aisle for action on climate change through a market-based mechanism. A carbon tax could be one such mechanism, be nested within broader fiscal reform, and send a global signal in advance of the United Nations Climate Conference in Paris late this year."
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