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View Poll Results: What do you do with the boat?
Leave it for the fishermen or locals to strip the boat. 14 29.79%
Head back to port and try to contact the owners and decide the way forward. 21 44.68%
Radio a passing powerboat for a tow off the reef. Sort out salvage agreement when in port. 6 12.77%
Spend a day removing items of use and value from the boat. 6 12.77%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-04-2014, 17:45   #31
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

The lack of a moral compass of some here is very sad, not surprising though.
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Old 14-04-2014, 19:04   #32
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

It appears to me before even possessing any item on someone elses vessel you must make contact to the owner. If in danger of loss it could be salvage but there is still notification needed to be made to the owners and law enforcement before further action happends.

Its still stealing if someone left their keys in the door to their house and you decide to help yourself.

In this case I do so believe it is more theft then anything. No matter who the owner is and knowing they did wrong to someone else does not give right to do wrong to them.

In my profession I come across many vehicles that have been either abandoned or totaled in a bad accident. Some of thease vehciles are only covered liability only with their insurance. We only go through the vehciles after the owner hands over the title or bill of sale usuailly just before we take it to the scrap yard. Abandoned vehicles its a process we have to go through that involves trying to notify the owners by I believe certified mail. Then notofying the local police to notify the division of motor vehicles to issue us a title so we can take it to the scrap yard.
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Old 14-04-2014, 19:14   #33
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

Is there a actual poll? We got more than enough opinions on the other thread. What we need now is solid numbers. I wouldn't say that it looks freshly grounded. I anchored next to it in oriental for several days and it's pretty rough. I bet a lot of answers on salvage-ability come down to people's perception on whether someone is coming back for it. It's in a very remote part of the Bahamas, if it were aground next to great sale cay it would be long stripped.
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Old 14-04-2014, 19:25   #34
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

The poll is torn between leaving it to the local and fisherman to strip, and going back to port and proper channels. see above
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:04   #35
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

An up to date version:

Primadonna's Latest Controversy | TownDock.net, Oriental NC


I think a lot of people feel that since the crew of Primadona owed Pat money that they had it coming, but the crew of
Fata Morgana essentially are thieves who like Pirates, boasted of the booty they hauled off of Primadona.
The crew of Primadona are still locked up awaiting deportation, and the boat would succumb to salvage anyway, I feel the right to anything on that boat only comes to the person or persons who actually haul it off the reef and dispose of anything not salvageable as opposed to just the good stuff. If you take anything off a boat, you are claiming salvage ownership of the vessel and now the responsible owner.
With that in mind, I would say that the crew of Fata Morgana essentially claimed first rights to the Primadona and should be responsible for towing it off the reef and disposing of it - PROPERELY. Essentially, they own the boat now and they are also responsible for cleaning it up since they were the first to claim ownership of any items on board.
So, my vote is you essentially follow the rules of salvage or leave it alone. Taking anything at all would be either claiming rights to the ENTIRE vessel or stealing. They are nothing but thieves. And the rest of us are left with a hulk of garbage sitting on a beautiful reef.
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:16   #36
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

Well thats one way at looking at it, but since they didn't officially register a claim they are still thieves and shouldn't get off easy with post-facto salvaging.

Thanks for everyone clarifying the situation, which I originally was misaligned in thinking.

Clearly they did something illegal in taking from the vessel and they should be prosecuted.
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:40   #37
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

Quote:
I would say that the crew of Fata Morgana essentially claimed first rights to the Primadona and should be responsible for towing it off the reef and disposing of it - PROPERELY. Essentially, they own the boat now and they are also responsible for cleaning it up since they were the first to claim ownership of any items on board.
Salvage does not give you any rights to own the boat so salvaged, it merely entitles you to proper compensation for saving the boat. The owner retains ownership.


dave
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Old 06-05-2014, 14:01   #38
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

It is a very interesting story from all sides and post mortem makes it harder to firmly take a side. After spending the past couple hours reading the hundreds of posts and stories on all sides, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that what they did was very wrong. I find it most troubling that the crew began "wrecking" this boat even after finding an ACTIVE cell phone on board.

My first thought if coming upon something like this would be a single hander who may have been injured and in a local hospital and what could I do to help secure the boat to keep it from being looted and start working the radio nets to get the word out while keeping the property safe as I could. With what they knew at the time, they were essentially using the same mentality used after a disaster with a store-front with windows broken out and people helping themselves to the contents.

----------------------
Calling it garbage and they are recycling really hit a nerve with me as it does not become garbage until the owner tosses it in the bin.
----------------------

Though the particular instance has been beat to death, what constitutes our morality and the morality of our fellow cruisers should be discussed as for the most part we really have to depend on each other, respect each other and count on each other when the proverbial crud hits the fan. It is hard enough to leave the boat at anchor and enjoy the islands, it is a scary thought that if you happened to be on land and your anchor drags your fellow cruisers may feel entitled to take what they want...
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Old 06-05-2014, 14:21   #39
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Salvage does not give you any rights to own the boat so salvaged, it merely entitles you to proper compensation for saving the boat. The owner retains ownership.


dave
Yes, and in this scenario, I was only trying to make the point that if they clearly felt the boat was left derelict and abandoned, by taking anything at all from the boat, they should be held responsible for cleaning up the entire mess. Only using their own justification and my feeling that if they felt entitled to part, they should be responsible for all. And that includes determining if the owner of the property abandoned it, or whether they need to return it to them or the authorities of the Bahamas.

Legally speaking, they had no right to the boat or the contents. And should have attempted to secure it once they determined no life was in danger, then contacted the authorities in the Bahamas for instructions.
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Old 06-05-2014, 15:58   #40
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

I am not condoning the actions of the ones who liberated items from the grounded vessel. I once heard something about "stealing from thieves is justice" or maybe it is just a warped interpretation of karmic law. I would be interested to know the story of the two that sailed the "Prima Donna". How they came to be where they are now, from maybe when they were young adults. Who knows maybe it is just sad, or boring. I'd still like to know.
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Old 06-05-2014, 16:04   #41
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

Holding them indefinitely in a jail doesn't sound fair now does it? Part of those scraps could have paid for their deportation transport.

Now who are the greater criminals? Guvment 4 sure//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\
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Old 07-05-2014, 06:15   #42
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Salvage does not give you any rights to own the boat so salvaged, it merely entitles you to proper compensation for saving the boat. The owner retains ownership.


dave
Correct. I'm not going to waste time reading the rest of this, but to my mind a boat grounded in territorial waters is very different from finding a boat abandoned and adrift in international waters. In the second instance, it may be difficult to notify the national SAR/marine authority of wherever the boat is from...if that can be determined.

Grounded in the Bahamas is clearly different. You can raise people on the VHF or just report it at the next stop. It's akin to finding a wallet on the ground in front of an urban police station, or finding a similar wallet while solo-trekking across the Sahara.

That said, my instinct if I found a boat adrift on the high seas and it was impractical to take it under tow due to conditions or distance, I would try to remove clearly personal items and then would cut the hoses, because a big steel boat adrift is a very nasty navigational hazard, and can pollute a fair stretch of wherever it comes ashore.
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Old 08-05-2014, 06:40   #43
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Re: The 'Salvage' poll

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
Correct. I'm not going to waste time reading the rest of this, but to my mind a boat grounded in territorial waters is very different from finding a boat abandoned and adrift in international waters. In the second instance, it may be difficult to notify the national SAR/marine authority of wherever the boat is from...if that can be determined.

Grounded in the Bahamas is clearly different. You can raise people on the VHF or just report it at the next stop. It's akin to finding a wallet on the ground in front of an urban police station, or finding a similar wallet while solo-trekking across the Sahara.

That said, my instinct if I found a boat adrift on the high seas and it was impractical to take it under tow due to conditions or distance, I would try to remove clearly personal items and then would cut the hoses, because a big steel boat adrift is a very nasty navigational hazard, and can pollute a fair stretch of wherever it comes ashore.
"It's akin to finding a wallet on the ground in front of an urban police station, or finding a similar wallet while solo-trekking across the Sahara."

Horse Hooey! It is akin to the difference of finding a vehicle that is stuck in the sand in the Mojave and with the second part of your analogy the Sahara. The remoteness is inconsequential other than it offers better opportunity to someone with a broken moral compass to justify their actions.

And the vehicle had contents to show that it was recently left - In this case a cell phone with a charge. And a Kedge anchor to show someone is or has tried to keep it in place and upright.

This happens all the time. Car breaks down, owner goes for help, only to return to a car stripped of all valuables.

Your analogy would be more like my boat dragging anchor and ending up a mile away on the other side of a remote anchorage while I am ashore. Like the wallet, it was not intentionally left there. And I would hope there is not a soul on this forum who feels that makes it open game to pillage.
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