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Old 03-04-2012, 07:40   #106
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. . . .There must be a therapy group around here for us. Perhaps 'Freedom Anon' or some similar name. Kinda the polite version of SA. . . . .
:-)
You could try forming a social group here on CF and see how much participation you get. Click on "Community" above to get started.
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:43   #107
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

What do you think is the right size for this type of sailing? It does have to hold all my tools. Include scuba and some welding, sewing machine in addition to the usual. Also a complete Rx kit. (Now you see why I solo with a 40 footer :-) )
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:57   #108
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Originally Posted by s/v Beth
What do you think is the right size for this type of sailing? It does have to hold all my tools. Include scuba and some welding, sewing machine in addition to the usual. Also a complete Rx kit. (Now you see why I solo with a 40 footer :-) )
Isn't that the hard about with self-sufficiency, where to put all the things to make one self sufficient and yet still living a simple life...I'm in the same boat, where to put all my tools, spares, etc. and there are four of us.

We have desperately tried to keep the toys and systems to a minimum, but always question ourselves like

Is a bike a toy or will it decrease our need to rely on public transport or car rental?

Is a kayak a toy or does the pleasure it brings combined with a lower need on the outboard justify it?

What about a sailing dingy, wind surfer, a jogging pram or a baby backpack, etc..

We also go over the boat every time we come into a port with a great cruising community and participate in the boot sales trying to get stuff we don't need off to others who do, but more often than not finding all sorts of other things we "need".

We sail a 40footer and feel cozy now but with two very young but rapidly growing girls I wonder when the day is going to come when one either asks for a pony or her own room...
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:07   #109
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Cessation is my active way of ceasing to be part of the problem. From over-consumption to financial greed, my society does great harm to the planet we all call home. I don't have the energy to try and save the world, but I can stop being part of the problem (at least to some degree).
I have heard the other parts in various forms before but the cessation part I haven't seen before. I love it and think it is probably the most overlooked aspect of simplicity.

Even dynamically, as in constantly checking your own behaviour. I find that when I was on my old boat as a single man and stopped somewhere to work there was always this subtle "consumption creep" that would happen.

First I would shift from living off the hook to living in the marina, cause it was more convenient...

...then I would look about buying or long term renting a vehicle, cause it was more convenient...

...then the air con

...then the dinners out

...

Same on land, whenever money was available it was so much harder to act with restraint.

Using you model of cessation works well here as you regularly reevaluate your decisions and where necessary stop the consumption patterns.

Love it, thanks.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:26   #110
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
What do you think is the right size for this type of sailing? It does have to hold all my tools. Include scuba and some welding, sewing machine in addition to the usual. Also a complete Rx kit. (Now you see why I solo with a 40 footer :-) )
Ah Newt, you know that only you can answer this question. The only worthwhile piece of wisdom I've ever heard on this is: go with the smallest boat you can live with. It's always easy to go bigger (at least initially). Finding the smallest boat you can truly live with is the challenge.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:00   #111
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@ Mike OReilly

Owe you an apology.

I was quoting your post and somehow I got newts name crediting what you wrote. Sorry about that, so everything I said I above is meant for you. Great post.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:08   #112
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I have heard the other parts in various forms before but the cessation part I haven't seen before. I love it and think it is probably the most overlooked aspect of simplicity.

...

Using you model of cessation works well here as you regularly reevaluate your decisions and where necessary stop the consumption patterns.

Love it, thanks.
Thanks for saying so FS. Cessation is core to what drives both myself and my partner.

As you say, it's hard to act with restraint in our rich western societies. The seductions are all around us. But more than that, everything about our economies and our cultures drives us to want more, to want bigger, to want easier. Enough is a foreign idea.

I can't stop my culture's drive for an ever-expanding more, but I can try not to be part of the problem. It is harder to do this on land than at sea (at least for me).
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:18   #113
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I can't stop my culture's drive for an every-expanding more, but I can try not to be part of the problem. It is harder to do this on land than at sea (at least for me).
not to delve too far into topic of forbidden politics aspect of this forum...but what the hell..

..the entire economic structur of western society is based on growth, growth is based on increased consumption.

After 9/11. What was the first thing Bush said, "go and spend" ok a paraphrase but damn close...

...what is the proposed solution for Ireland, where I live now, and Europe for the current issues? Not increased regulation and education for consumers, but to "revitalise spending and restore consumer confidence"

...it makes me want to vomit, but that might be for another forum, with titles like "2 girls 1 cup", but I digress...

You have touched on one of the core issues that make me love sailing so much, besides the damn cool part of actually sailing...

...the intentional decision to NOT PARTICIPATE.

We choose to be frugal, we choose to be self sufficient, we choose to consume less..

...not because we are superheroes, but because it is a necessity for the path we have chosen...

...we have X litres of water and diesel in our tanks and our consumption of it directly relates to our experience.

it is not supposedly endless like it feels when we are on land and we can plug something into a socket and the only issue if it is not turned off is that it costs us some incremental additional cost at the end of the month versus draining our batteries into oblivion..

...ah ****, if my wife was here she would give me a loving but firm nudge in the ribs to get off of the soap box

Edit: subtle changes were made to make this post while i was obsessing over it so it would make more sense to all the voices that aren't actually inside my head
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:17   #114
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

So far, I've read about half this thread. Had to give up on the rest. A lot of it is no more than self-conscious, self-centered, self-satisfied, self-justifying and self-important drivel that misses the point.

Okay, that's overly harsh and I don't really mean it. I apologize. But now that I've gotten your attention, think about this:

It's the sailing that's the point of being sailors; day sailing, racing, cruising or deliveries, on your own boat or someone else's boat. It's the passages, the landfalls, new ones and old ones. It's the people you meet along the way and the places you see.

Whether it's some stripped out, crapped out old Cal 40 or a brand new gold plater out of Hinckley or Lyman Morse isn't really the point. (Unless you make your living at Hinckley or Lyman Morse or etc.)

As a sailor's life, simple and cheap aren't matters of philosophy so much as conditions. When you don't have radar, whether by choice or by failure, you close on the coast differently than you do when you do have it. When you don't have refrigeration, you drink your beer warm. If the beer's cold, that's good too (unless you're a silly Brit). Either way, a sailor sails when he can.

With that much as a predicate, there's a spectrum of simplicity and of cheapness. For one, an old Cal 40 may be the very embodiment of simplicity for the lack of frills, the lack of elaborate joinery, the simplicity of the rig. For another, a Cal 40 may be an absolute horror, contemplating the need to reef that big main and douse that huge headsail (simplified by the absence of an expensive and complicated furler).

Too much maintenance can interfere with your sailing. That's not good. So it's okay to make choices based on that consideration to make sure that conditions favor your priority - or at least interfere a little as possible. On the other hand, a water maker might be a very liberating choice if you're sailing where potable water is not widely available or where it takes 20 Jerry cans in your dinghy to fill your tanks at 50 cents a gallon. (That's in several trips, not all at one time, you nitwit!) There's no single answer for everyone. It all depends. And that's what makes it a condition and not a philosophy.

Sailboats and their gear are expensive, as we all know. That constrains a lot of sailors. If you really want to go, make choices that make that possible and if that means making do without, get on with it.

On the way, simple gear can break down too. "Oh, no! The engine died!" Oh well, it's a sail boat, so we'll be okay. "Oh, no! The main sheet shackle on the boom broke!" Well, I've got a couple of feet of a.) that new Dyneema line, or b.) that jack line webbing and we can use that to lash the block to the boom and keep on going. We'll be okay. We'll make do. We'll get there. We're sailors and used to hard ships. (Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

At the heart of the matter, it's the sailing, the leaving, the going, the arriving, the visiting that are the point. That's the philosophy of sailing. All else are the conditions of that commitment, whether choosing simplicity or negotiating with family members or renewing your passport.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:29   #115
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

"stripped out, crapped out old Cal 40".....

You done hurt my feelings. My Cal 40 was my first real boat, and you know what they say about your first love.

I'm kidding about any hurt feelings.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:31   #116
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

LH44, your points may be valid and express your views, but "sailing" per se is not the topic of this thread. This thread is specifically about the philosophy of sailing simply and cheaply. IMHO.....
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:34   #117
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It's the sailing that's the point of being sailors
No offence mate but that is exactly wrong. The sailing is th easiest part of cruising, it is the maintenance, the financing, the emotional adjust,ents of relationships, etc that is hard.

If it was only sailing that was hard about cruising half of this forum wouldn't exist.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:40   #118
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Yep, the actual sailing is only part of it.....
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:38   #119
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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No offence mate but that is exactly wrong. The sailing is th easiest part of cruising, it is the maintenance, the financing, the emotional adjust,ents of relationships, etc that is hard.

If it was only sailing that was hard about cruising half of this forum wouldn't exist.
No offense taken, mate. Just differing views. In my view, all that's just sophistry, to be direct (no offense). To say what's easy isn't the same as saying it isn't the real point. We all go through the tough bits to get to the sailing; else what's the point? (I know there are folks who never get away and work endlessly on their boats, but they're either working toward a departure or they're not really sailors at all.)

And if you think the sailing's always the easy part, you haven't been out there enough. It can get plenty tough at times.

There are lot's of boats on the hard in Tortola and St. Maartin and etc., left by people who got that far, listed the boat with a broker, said "never again" and flew home, because the getting ready was fine, but the sailing was hard, harder than expected, harder than they could face again. (You've got to be really careful, but you can find some really very good boats at "distress prices" in the islands.)
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:57   #120
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No offense taken, mate. Just differing views. In my view, all that's just sophistry, to be direct (no offense). To say what's easy isn't the same as saying it isn't the real point. We all go through the tough bits to get to the sailing; else what's the point? (I know there are folks who never get away and work endlessly on their boats, but they're either working toward a departure or they're not really sailors at all.)

And if you think the sailing's always the easy part, you haven't been out there enough. It can get plenty tough at times.

There are lot's of boats on the hard in Tortola and St. Maartin and etc., left by people who got that far, listed the boat with a broker, said "never again" and flew home, because the getting ready was fine, but the sailing was hard, harder than expected, harder than they could face again. (You've got to be really careful, but you can find some really very good boats at "distress prices" in the islands.)
Nice response. +thumb
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