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Old 30-03-2012, 17:57   #76
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

A wise person once said; If you want to go cruising (on a budget), stop thinking about what you need, and start thinking about what you don't need.
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:12   #77
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Originally Posted by Pelagic
I majored in Philosophy in college and this type of discussion strikes me as being somewhat self-fulfilling.

Correct me if I am wrong but:
If your budget offers you a choice, then attribute it to Philosophy.
If not, then it is a Necessity in order to achieve your primary goals

No matter how well you wrap it in terms of freedom or social responsibility, your lack of actual choice just makes it a rationalization, based on assumptions that you have never experienced or managed very well.

Nothing wrong with that, but it does not have “preaching from the pulpit” value......
Nicely put
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:14   #78
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by sycpuppy View Post
Always wondered and hope I'm not dragging this off in the wrong direction, But how many people overbuild their boats to cut costs? find something that may cost 1 1/2 to 2 times as much but is more corrosive resistant and will handle higher pressure and will outlast what they do have by 2-4 times. Every time I look at boats I try to figure out what can be changed that may initially cost more but will overall bring maintenance work and cost down while making the boat safer to operate. What lines can be run what way to increase flow efficiency while cause less stress to that system and adapt shorter lines with less overall length for something to go wrong with while having enough length for when something does go wrong.
Pretty much just wondering how much less it could cost if done that way since If I'm going to get a boat and build it up I'm going to have to over build it to reduce work in the long run as I don't have the greatest of health.
Gotta add a little more

What exactly is 'the long run'?

Most of the stuff on my boat is oirginal, 37 years old, and I'm not worried about replacing all of it (some of it, yes).... But I think the question is; How long do things really need to last to 'reduce maintenance'?

Boat's are never going to be maintenance free. You'll always need another coat of paint, another round of oil/varnish, another stitch in the sails, a few new shackles, another length of chain, more rope, etc.. etc... it's ENDLESS (good boat name!)

Separate the boat into parts, Structural vs. Consumable. If it's structural, make it last forever. If it's consumable, price shop and then decide if 5 years is 'good enough' vs. 10 years. Most things are going to last many years, even most consumables, like rope and chain... can you save a few hundred dollars now with the possibility of replacing a year or two earlier vs. the more expensive item? Or, is it worth it to you to get that extra year or two for the extra cost?

Once again, it's all relative to the individual and their goals for their boat.
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:15   #79
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
..........................So this thread is all about Sailing Simply, where it leads you, and why you do it. By definition- if it saves you time or money we want to hear about. If it simplifies your life a lot, please share!
I thought it would be interesting to go back to the original question in this thread and, in doing so, I find that the goal does not work for me. Saving time and money can be contradictory. We squander time to save money. Well, actually, as we all know, we are all on the same clock and spending time at the same rate. The question comes up as a cruiser, how much time are you allowing to cruise? We loosen our time constraints in order to enjoy our time cruising and to save money. First, and most important, we are enjoying where we are at the time and not worrying about the time required to be someplace else. We are presently in Florida and leaving for Maine in a couple of weeks. We expect to arrive in Maine near the fourth of July,- maybe sooner or later. We will spend most of our time anchored out at about thirty locations on our route and selecting the most favorable weather to move to new places. We barely maintain the rate at which the earth turns it's axis in expressing the seasons. This seems to save some money and time is irrelevant.
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:24   #80
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Originally Posted by callmecrazy
Thats assuming you have the ability to 'raise your net worth'. Most normal westerners are stuck in the work/spend/work/spend cycle.
This is the big thing isn't it. The term "stuck". When my wife and I say we are "again" leaving with our two little ones to go sailing for an extended period people can't get their heads around it. People are not stuck, they make a series of decisions over a series over years and get themselves stuck. It is not a matter of society or culture or economics, it is simply a matter of the consequences of decisions.

Do we forget that decisions have consequences that extend longer than it takes for us to close a Facebook page or logout of a forum?

Getting a mortgage, taking a loan out on a car, generally engaging in financial instruments that extend for a significant period of time take control out of your hands.

If you have a long term plan using banks, interest, and leverage can be a powerful tool to freedom, but for most people they don't have a plan. They buy a house, take a loan, go to school on a school loan (have you had to deal with school loan officials? Holy **** they will find you in an alternate universe).

I agree that simple living is generally the key to happiness, but for many they realise too late that they have been suckered into buying a fiddle from the devil and don't really know how to play it and they come to forums like this and ask, "please tell me how can I live the dream all you live, you must be millionaires", when the answer is so much simpler...

...consequences are a bitch
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:41   #81
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I agree that simple living is generally the key to happiness, but for many they realise too late that they have been suckered into buying a fiddle from the devil and don't really know how to play it and they come to forums like this and ask, "please tell me how can I live the dream all you live, you must be millionaires", when the answer is so much simpler...
This is the big thing isn't it? Are we really expected to make all the right decisions from the time we're 18 years old? Are we expected to continue on the same path at 40 years old that we started on when were 20?

You're absolutely right that these are the consequences of our decisions. But, are we really that wrong for making the wrong decisions after we've been trained from birth to find acceptance in a pre-programmed society?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vast majority of cruisers weren't born cruisers. It was a NEW decision at some mid-point of their lives. And we are all trying to make it happen while dealing with the consequences (good or bad) of our previous lives.

Is there really a right or wrong in this? And should people just accept the 'fate' they've been dealt? Or is it more realistic that people can CHANGE their lives by making NEW decisions that bring them onto a better path of their choosing?
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:54   #82
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@callmecrazy

You get me wrong...

I don't mean to belittle all the people who are trapped by long term commitments or who changed corse mid life and are stuck with a house that 5 years ago was worth x and is now worth x/2

But I am saying that, in the western world at least, we are all sold a sack of **** and we all lap it up and get stuck. We were told, my generation at least and I am 42 and my parents generation, that owning land and a house was the ultimate in security and a defining moment of becoming an adult. We are sold daily items that we can't afford and are shamed by the media for not having them.

It has nothing to do with being born a sailor or cruiser, but it does have to do with buying into being a consumer. If you bought into it young and now have consequences like a house that is under water or no cash in the bank because you lived to the edge of your means than I am sorry, but thems the consequences.

At 16 I knew consequences, and it had nothing to do with sailing or sailing dreams. My ability to go sailing has nothing to do with wanting to be a sailor it has to do with financial decisions I made and have jad to live with that started over a decade ago.

Edit: and not to be harsh...if one has made a life change then I salute them, but changing a path that involves financial instruments and banks takes a long time and serious sacrifices. Make a plan, and stick to it. Don't look for sympathy here. If you screw yourself by making bad choices and then work doubly hard to correct it later on and get out sailing, well if I see you out there I will paddle my dink over to your boat with a cold bottle of rum and we will raise our glasses together and talk about how we beat the system. Sooner or later is irrelevanT, as long as you escape before you die...
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Old 30-03-2012, 19:24   #83
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
@callmecrazy

You get me wrong...

I don't mean to belittle all the people who are trapped by long term commitments or who changed corse mid life and are stuck with a house that 5 years ago was worth x and is now worth x/2

But I am saying that, in the western world at least, we are all sold a sack of **** and we all lap it up and get stuck. We were told, my generation at least and I am 42 and my parents generation, that owning land and a house was the ultimate in security and a defining moment of becoming an adult. We are sold daily items that we can't afford and are shamed by the media for not having them.

It has nothing to do with being born a sailor or cruiser, but it does have to do with buying into being a consumer. If you bought into it young and now have consequences like a house that is under water or no cash in the bank because you lived to the edge of your means than I am sorry, but thems the consequences.

At 16 I knew consequences, and it had nothing to do with sailing or sailing dreams. My ability to go sailing has nothing to do with wanting to be a sailor it has to do with financial decisions I made and have jad to live with that started over a decade ago.

Edit: and not to be harsh...if one has made a life change then I salute them, but changing a path that involves financial instruments and banks takes a long time and serious sacrifices. Make a plan, and stick to it. Don't look for sympathy here. If you screw yourself by making bad choices and then work doubly hard to correct it later on and get out sai
Ing, well if I see you out there I will paddle my dink over to your boat with a cold bottle of rum and we will raise our glasses together and talk about how we beat the system. Sooner or later is irrelevanT, as long as you escape before you die...
I appreciate your sentiment. But I don't think I got you're point wrong. You're saying that some people make poor financial and commitment decisions and become stuck with the consequences. So that's that.... No help for them. No respect for those that can't make it out. No solace for the ones that are still trying...

But see, that is the point of these 'budget' threads. They are not for the guys with 42 foot alumimun cruisers to tell us how well they are doing and how easy it was for them. They are for the people who are struggling, to help them find ways to make cruising more financially viable for their budget. Whether it's philosophical or physical, there are many ways to simplify a persons life, or a persons boat, and therefore bring the cruising world a little closer to reality for them.

Nobody was looking for sympathy from you.
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Old 30-03-2012, 19:33   #84
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

OK, I am guilty as anyone of trying to make a boat like a condominium. And then some. Like a battleship.

When I did my big trip about 10 years ago, with an unfinished boat, I realized I could have done the same trip in a kayak with a tent and the usual camping gear.

We all know the view out on the water in the morning. It is a big view and it may show us some shore line, but cruisers end up out on the big water and you see all the clouds, waves, and maybe some birds or dolphins greeting you. It doesn't matter what kind of boat got you there, it is a primal view that somehow rings true to your soul. It is said that all the great migrations of mankind have been done on boats of some kind. We may have some inner instinctive soul that gets us down to the water, onto a boat, and loving every minute of it. Well, maybe not EVERY minute of it.

How many of you would give up life on boat, even an afternoon row on a Whitehall, never to go out again, for anything else in the world?

I once owned a house in upstate NY on the Hudson River and was actively windsuring, having dropped down in boat size, gradually, to a windsurfer. I found it to be a very rewarding way of going sailing. Plus, there was the beach culture, even on a lake, even witlh local Redlnecks, and Mohawk headed punkers from Downtown. You see, we used the beach for sailing and had our thing out there on the beach. The rednecks had come to the bar since day one and had their country music blaring, but the punks showed up when their local heros got a gig there. It was a strange scene, but culturally rewarding. When I moved away, to live on the coast and buy a catamaran, the place burned down. It was gone literally 2 months after I moved away.

The house I had up there was built by the Waters family in 1879 and while I was reading the "Voyage of the Paper Canoe" online, it said Nathaniel stopped in upstate NY and bought a canoe from George Waters. And I went kayaking all around up there. It's the best way to get to know an area. Ride a bicycle. Paddle a kayak. You will know more of the area than many of the residents.

The idea of water is that it is liquid and the sea goes everywhere. 85% of the world's population live near the water. The most expensive real estate is right by the water. If you can get to it and paddle around, you are where most of the people in the world want to be.

But they can't be out on the water, like out by the Gulf Stream, or out of sight of land. That's the real relevation. It can be alive with dolphins or fish jumping, or perfectly flat and calm. It can be roiled up with waves and a storm brewing, or mountains of sea, just as malevolent as the shark's lifeless eye. I think it is never the same, no matter what piece of ocean you find yourself on, the next day.

The polynesians had a calendar to keep track of the changes of seasons and winds and currents. They included the phases of the moon, just as the Mayans did. The result is that no two days, in your lifetime, are the same. You can use the stars, phases of the moon, and the movements of the sun to have a certain day, unlike any other day.
I've been reading some studies that suggest that mankind surged out of Africa and spread out over the Indian Ocean coasts and to Australia in only a few thousand years. Other theories suggest ancient excursions along the ice sheets of the ice ages from Asia to America and also from Europe to America. These were kayak people who followed their prey. It was a quest to newer hunting grounds.


So, I'll be installing new counter tops in my galley this weekend. Why not just a camp stove, and a solar shower. Why try to make a boat like a condominium?

The admiral commands.
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:14   #85
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Philosophy...

External locus of control - that which happens to me is beyond my control. External forces cause my behaviors. Pick your poison - government, parents, banks, job, family. All these things conspire to stop me from achieving my goals

Existential dreamers - I have $20k and I am sure I can buy a 40 foot boat and cruise around the world. It will all work out. I can live aboard in a marina while my magical refit takes care of itself. It must be so because I love dolphins...

Practical realists - I reckon one more year of refitting on top of the 5 I have done will make the boat perfect, unsinkable and risk free. Just gotta pull the newly overhauled donk and convert to electric propulsion because that's the latest technofad

Responsible adults - as soon as I am done taking care of - mom, dad, grandma, kids, spouse, addicted sibling

Cyber sailor - I am never going, I know that but I will spend my time on the internet pretending I did, will do or am doing so
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:18   #86
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

So, there is no state of mind that exist out on the water that is different from being on land?
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Old 30-03-2012, 22:35   #87
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

After being out on the water for a few days I can't remember what I was thinking on land. It just doesn't matter anymore (at least till I get back)
Its not a different state of mind- its a different universe.
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Old 31-03-2012, 01:39   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy

I appreciate your sentiment. But I don't think I got you're point wrong. You're saying that some people make poor financial and commitment decisions and become stuck with the consequences. So that's that.... No help for them. No respect for those that can't make it out. No solace for the ones that are still trying...

But see, that is the point of these 'budget' threads. They are not for the guys with 42 foot alumimun cruisers to tell us how well they are doing and how easy it was for them. They are for the people who are struggling, to help them find ways to make cruising more financially viable for their budget. Whether it's philosophical or physical, there are many ways to simplify a persons life, or a persons boat, and therefore bring the cruising world a little closer to reality for them.

Nobody was looking for sympathy from you.
Poor decisions is a relative term. A good decision that involves buying a house with a 30 year mortgage may not be a good decision if one decides after 15 years they want to go sailing. Just like a good decision to go sailing by selling everything you own and then changing your ,ind 1 year down the road may not have been a good decision.

Respect or lack thereof was never mentioned. It is not disrespectful to state the truth about the consequences of our decisions, it may be a hard pill to swallow. I don't care if someone is able to go cruising or not, most of the people on this forum are not actively cruising.

As for your personal jab at me, I bought a boat that was 40 years old and in terrible shape and rebuilt the thing with my hands. It took me 5 years to find a boat that met my needs and that I could afford. I got the money to do so by living very modestly, very simply and on a budget. I afford to go sailing by continuing to live modestly and simply and being on a budget just like In this thread. I am by no means a millionaire sailor, far from it. I tend to sail for a year or 6 months and then put the boat on the hard and come back and work my ass off, save, and repeat.

For most of the people I know and my sailing and cruising friends the only way to get out there is to live very simply and focused. For others it is usually the time/money equation you have too much of one or the other but never enough of both.
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Old 31-03-2012, 02:32   #89
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by kaimusailing View Post
So, there is no state of mind that exist out on the water that is different from being on land?
There is no state of mind which is not different than the state of the same mind a millisecond before.

All just stuff going on up there

Generally speaking i find it more successful to try and enjoy what you are doing right now than planning to enjoy the future. Point your life in a general direction now and then and you might find the future pretty well takes care of itself freeing you up to enjoy what's going on right now. On or off the water.
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Old 31-03-2012, 03:38   #90
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Skimmed the posts here so if this is off track i confess to be TUI....
Typing under the influence
Am 50 years old now.i do not remember who said it about sailing into the sunset but for me......Am running towards something.Is not a simpler life as i see it.Just has different challenges and a way different standard of living.And a end that i can live with.
A little history.I have watched my father-in-law go from a working 2 jobs his whole life to the hospital taking every penny he has and he doesn't even know who or where he is.......
Spent almost 4 years in IRAQ...lost allot of good friends and made many more.Nuf said there
What i see in my coming years.
I choose not to chase the lost American dream.My father worked for his 30 with a company and retired.Now days you get to work till your dead.If you made a lucky decision about your trade/work and your company gets in trouble my tax dollars will be more than happy to bail you out.Mean time i still work till i am dead........and pay others pensions.
So i buy another boat and sail.....and see where my new life brings me.
AND IT IS MY LIFE.And i accept that i will one day die on MY boat.Not standing in line singing hail the king as i die of taxation and work.
pardon the rant but my TUI thoughts.
Mark
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