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Old 28-03-2012, 11:31   #61
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Caution ~~~Thread Drift~~~

daddle, and now for the question I've been dying to ask, what has been the highest speed recorded in your SC 50, surfing down a wave or otherwise? And distance covered in 24 hours?
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Old 28-03-2012, 13:39   #62
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Almost without exception a boat is substandard housing .
So the decision to live and/or cruise involves all sorts of questions involving philosophy,motives,expectations etc. etc..
I have always felt that the cruising experience is an exercise in values clarification .
Regarding Thoreau,I can only second the excellent recommendation made earlier here to read " Sensible Cruising' by Don Casey.
But everyone has to find their own way.
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Old 28-03-2012, 13:57   #63
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Caution ~~~Thread Drift~~~

daddle, and now for the question I've been dying to ask, what has been the highest speed recorded in your SC 50, surfing down a wave or otherwise? And distance covered in 24 hours?
Well ... on this ride I've only been in SE Asia. Not known for surfing conditions. My log shows the best 24 hour run to be a measly 157nm. That heroic effort was only made possible by the luck of intercepting the front of eight consecutive squalls. No motoring of course. Top speed was certainly in the low teens but only for a few minutes at a time as the squalls were not going my way. So far my only great advantage with this boat is that I can make reasonable progress in very light wind - when all the other cruisers are motoring.

Now racing on other SC50s in California there's been some crazy fast that I would be unlikely to do shorthanded: fast is fun.
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:56   #64
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Newt's profile has him owning a Valiant 40... that is not what I would remotely call going simplistic or campting out.. YMMV
Yeah, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention that. I bought her in the middle of the recession, when she had been up on blocks for a few years, for not much. I was still in the midst of my "castle building" stage of my life. I refitted her with alot of gadgets and gizmos. I see the error of my ways. Now I want to put her up for sale, but my grown up family(sons) protests most violently whenever I suggest it. I am selling the Compac. They will just have to do without the lake cruiser. Sailing is simple and beautiful. Families are complicated.
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Old 28-03-2012, 18:02   #65
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Well ... on this ride I've only been in SE Asia. Not known for surfing conditions. My log shows the best 24 hour run to be a measly 157nm. That heroic effort was only made possible by the luck of intercepting the front of eight consecutive squalls. No motoring of course. Top speed was certainly in the low teens but only for a few minutes at a time as the squalls were not going my way. So far my only great advantage with this boat is that I can make reasonable progress in very light wind - when all the other cruisers are motoring.

Now racing on other SC50s in California there's been some crazy fast that I would be unlikely to do shorthanded: fast is fun.
Like I mentioned, ran across a family in Santispac on their SC 50, and it was so much faster than me, that has left an impression after all these years.
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Old 29-03-2012, 12:02   #66
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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I think it was Herreshoff who said a boat should not be like a house, it should be like a boat. And I think I know what he meant. Walk into any Oyster (name generic) and you do not even know you are in a boat! Now walk into a Herresshoff's boat ... you WILL see the difference.

'Simplicity sailing' may be an extreme but then again extremes are as relevant to the whole picture as any other point on the scale. Marinas may be tight, but the ocean is still vast. There is space for every one.

b.

Whilst I genuinely have no issue with how others use their boats nor care what they "get" from whatever they do with them.....sometimes I do wonder if I am participating in the same pastime as some others , but never really found the right words (or the right thread!) to express that!

For me the enjoyment of a boat is precisely that it is a boat, with all the pros and cons and challenges that involves, including that a boat will not have all the mod cons and conveniances of Penthouse living - a boat is not something on which I am trying to mimic an RV or a Condo living experiance. Personally I think for that sort of experiance (and level of comfort / conveniance) the best thing is an RV or a Condo, rather than what will always be a 2nd best substitute afloat (and if and when! I want that - I have no problem in doing so onshore, with whatever accomdation works best for my wants).

I doubt if many turn their shore side accomadation into something that mimics a boat .....let alone dream of doing so .

But as I said, each to there own .
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Old 29-03-2012, 12:31   #67
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I see it as car R/V camping vs back packing. Both have their distinct advantages and which is best depends on the individual. There is purity in roughing it although being comfortable has its advantages as well.
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Old 30-03-2012, 10:20   #68
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Re: Sailing Simply and Cheaply

Just saw this thread while looking for something else and found it a very interesting read from the beginning. It relects a broad spectrum of opinions about the "correct" approach to minimalist/simplified sailing. I composed this post while reading through the thread so it restates in somewhat different words what several others (barnakiel, mbianka, Pelagic, et. al.) have already stated. Sorry for the thread clutter but since I spent all this time on it, I'm posting anyway!

+++++

Few can argue that cruising involves sacrifices (e.g. limited hot water showers, sporadic Internet, inability to run to the store for that one spice you need to make a special dish). How many sacrifices one is willing to make is where philosophy enters the picture unless those sacrifices are mandated by budget. Some people here (Bruce626, Newt, Zeehag???) take the bare bones approach by choice and are perfectly happy using the "bucket-and-chuck-it" method or drinking everything warm. Others, and I'll include my wife and me in this group, are not willing to make as many sacrifices. She wants ice in her drinks so not only do we have a regrigerator and freezer, we have an ice maker for "emergencies" when we can't buy ice. I do not like searching for water of problematic quality from docks and fueling stations so we have a watermaker. We have a Bose Surround Sound system that feeds into a flat screen TV for viewing an occasional DVD. Even some self professed minimalists like DeckOfficer, barnakiel, and callmecrazy admitted that there are certain comforts they won't give up.

Deckofficer's interchange with daddle about shower's reminded me of another way to simplify cruising that actually relates to the OP: Even though we have hot and cold water at the swim ladder, I catch rain water in tubs and save it for rinsing snorkel gear and showering on the back step. I use an old 16 oz plastic cup to splash water on and to rinse off. Solar heat on the bucket obviates the complication of a Solar Shower bag.

Bottom line: Every cruiser makes his or her own choice within his or her financial ability about what conveniences of home they want to take aboard. No one cruiser's choice is better than the next - just different.
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Old 30-03-2012, 10:39   #69
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

John,

Me thinks me bag is pretty simple (and cheap). Even if you have a "real" shower down below, it is hard to pass up on the freedom of an outdoor shower.

Does this look to have "complication of a Solar Shower bag"?

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Old 30-03-2012, 11:10   #70
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

This could easily become a "Which anchor" thread.
Those anchors, seem to be:
The internet.
toilet facilities.
Showers / hot water.
Comfort foods and the ability to cook them.
Electricity.

The list goes on I guess, but each one binds us to not just land but life in whatever this abnormal society has become. Perhaps untying each one at home at some level first is the key to any sort of freedom.
As the old adage goes, "Anyone can be uncomfortable".
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Old 30-03-2012, 14:28   #71
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I don't think I (or others) are against modern inventions, but how much they bind us to repair facilities is very important. I like using the toilet as much as the next guy, but I think we need to get one that is simple and doesn't break down (or simply maintaining it as others have done) and you have something that fits into the philosophy of simple and cheap.
The shower that Bob showed is a classic example. It gets you a modern pleasure (a hot shower) simply, and if it breaks is simple to repair and continue on (usually just duct tape).
John, Perhaps your enough of an electronics wiz to fix all that stuff when it goes out. I am not. What are you going to do with your crew when they get used to all that and it isn't there?? Just food for thought. I find my crew complains a whole lot more on things that break than things they had to do without once they stepped on board.
HBL: I am most comfortable when my sheet to tiller steering is causing my boat to sail like a madman toward the next adventure and I am laying out on my towel. Not using anything but the boat and the wind.
Now I do agree that the internet, cooking foods and comfortable beds all make up a good boat, but this tread is in how do we simply what we need, and therefore make it repairable and consistent. Too much complexity and I spend all my time repairing and running into port.
Really, by getting rid of all that we are making better sailboats (and better sailors). It has nothing to do with my opinion. Sailboats, to an extent are like Walden Pond. Less is better.
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Old 30-03-2012, 16:03   #72
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Interesting thread.

But who cares?

Which do you want, the moment to moment experience of contentment most of the time or the idea that your life is the way you think it should be?

Daniel Kahneman: The riddle of experience vs. memory | Video on TED.com

I like the momentary contentment bit.

Planning lots or planning little, the future comes along anyway. How much of an effect do you think your hours of planning had on it??

Enjoy the dance
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Old 30-03-2012, 16:19   #73
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

IM(ns)HO material baggage can be just as confining as emotional. I have always felt better when I had less "STUFF". So being total self sufficient and carrying everything one owns in the confines of a boat, rv, tent, backpack, etc., gives a freedom that is hard to duplicate. Took me far too many years to realize this. The Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) principle is one I shall live the rest of my days by. Wanna buy some stuff?
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Old 30-03-2012, 17:14   #74
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Always wondered and hope I'm not dragging this off in the wrong direction, But how many people overbuild their boats to cut costs? find something that may cost 1 1/2 to 2 times as much but is more corrosive resistant and will handle higher pressure and will outlast what they do have by 2-4 times. Every time I look at boats I try to figure out what can be changed that may initially cost more but will overall bring maintenance work and cost down while making the boat safer to operate. What lines can be run what way to increase flow efficiency while cause less stress to that system and adapt shorter lines with less overall length for something to go wrong with while having enough length for when something does go wrong.
Pretty much just wondering how much less it could cost if done that way since If I'm going to get a boat and build it up I'm going to have to over build it to reduce work in the long run as I don't have the greatest of health.
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Old 30-03-2012, 17:54   #75
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Always wondered and hope I'm not dragging this off in the wrong direction, But how many people overbuild their boats to cut costs? find something that may cost 1 1/2 to 2 times as much but is more corrosive resistant and will handle higher pressure and will outlast what they do have by 2-4 times. Every time I look at boats I try to figure out what can be changed that may initially cost more but will overall bring maintenance work and cost down while making the boat safer to operate. What lines can be run what way to increase flow efficiency while cause less stress to that system and adapt shorter lines with less overall length for something to go wrong with while having enough length for when something does go wrong.
Pretty much just wondering how much less it could cost if done that way since If I'm going to get a boat and build it up I'm going to have to over build it to reduce work in the long run as I don't have the greatest of health.

I think most cost-cutting comes from shopping around, rather than buying sub-standard materials.

That said, most of the money being put into boats is not on 'structural' material. How much can actually sink your boat? Rigging failure, thru-hulls and below the waterline plumbing, rudder and propshaft... Yeah, get the good stuff for those things.

But, everything else is cosmetic. Everything.

You have to ask yourself: Are you really going to save money painting the deck with $100 a gallon paint that lasts 5 years longer than $20 a gallon paint? Do you really need a $3000 stove because the you'll save $100 a year on fuel, over that pesky original alcohol stove? Is a $1500 Avon dinghy going to last longer than a $250 wooden pram?

There are many ways to save money, but when it comes to structural integrity of the boat, I don't see any problem with going with the best possible material. That said, you also need to be realistic about the usage of the boat. Most cruisers don't need the same 'best possible' that has become popularized by racing boats. To get the best possible deals, you really need to do serious research as to what is realistic and what's just a bunch of hype. Some things are actually better, but are you ever going to notice the difference?
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