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Old 22-04-2012, 06:53   #451
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Once I realized that I could never ‘definitively’ prove my existence, it somehow freed me to follow my heart and private sense of accomplishments without the need for external approval, justification or acceptance.

I do good things to others for purely selfish reason and expect nothing in return.

Never underestimate the ‘importance of being selfish!’
"I think, therefore I am."... René Descartes.
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Old 22-04-2012, 08:09   #452
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I'm all for simple, but it looks to me like thinking here is screwed up...

The more simply people want to cruise, the more complicated they make it.
Loading jugs into a dinghy, rowing ashore, filling them, loading them back, is complicated. Simple is flicking the switch on the watermaker.
Rubbing sticks together to start a fire to cook a meal is complicated. Turning the knob on the self igniting propane stove is simple.
Using a bucket for a head, then getting rid of it is much more complicated than hitting the vacuflush.

Just a few thoughts...

* Why is having hot showers on land normal, but on a boat it's a luxury?
* Water is a basic requirement, but a watermaker is a luxury?

And now the BIG question...
How did a thread on simple become so complicated (and interesting)?
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Old 22-04-2012, 08:20   #453
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
I'm all for simple, but it looks to me like thinking here is screwed up...

The more simply people want to cruise, the more complicated they make it.
Loading jugs into a dinghy, rowing ashore, filling them, loading them back, is complicated. Simple is flicking the switch on the watermaker.
Rubbing sticks together to start a fire to cook a meal is complicated. Turning the knob on the self igniting propane stove is simple.
Using a bucket for a head, then getting rid of it is much more complicated than hitting the vacuflush.

Just a few thoughts...

* Why is having hot showers on land normal, but on a boat it's a luxury?
* Water is a basic requirement, but a watermaker is a luxury?

And now the BIG question...
How did a thread on simple become so complicated (and interesting)?
Speaking of making simple things complicated, how come you haven't bought a boat yet? How about at least an update?
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Old 22-04-2012, 08:27   #454
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I think you're confusing simple with EASY.
And there is a big difference between keeping things simple and not being able to afford things (because there is the 'budget' clause in this thread). I think people that jerry jug water and rub sticks together, do it only because they can't afford it, not because they think it's simpler...

A water tank, with a straight run of hose to a foot pump is very simple. Yet delivers water efficiently and effectively.

People on land have no idea how much water they are using and wasting. In their mind, They turn the magic knob and water comes from some everlasting source. Same thing with the electricity or gas they use. It's the norm because people are ignorant and they follow the philosophy of "just buy more". Which is NOT simple.

On a boat, when you put the systems together yourself, and you fill the tanks yourself. There's no question where the water comes from or how much you're using. And if you have a simple system, when there is a problem with it, there will be no question where the problem is and how to fix it.

Hot water from a tap sounds simple. But you have to generate the energy to run it, run all the extra plumbing, keep it accessible, and when/if it breaks, be able to repair it or purchase a new one.

A manual pump just needs a bit of maintenance and it will last virtually forever. Power is generated by hand (or foot), so the source is literally limitless, and it saves a ridiculous amount of water. Which is important when all you have is a 40 gallon tank...

I replaced the electric water pump on this boat when I got it. Now I'm switching to a foot pump by choice because I want my water to keep working if the other complicated system (electrical) has any issues. And I don't want to spend $200 if/when it breaks...
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Old 22-04-2012, 08:40   #455
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Doh.

But when things are in balance, when we are in the sweet spot, how could we take any action?

I agree it would be great to act out of satisfaction, but I believe we mostly act out of lack of satisfaction.

Example A: John hates his electric windlass, he gets rid of it and lives happily until he finds he hates his radar ...

Example B: Brenda hates Crocks, she gets rid of them and buys proper Armani leather shoes ...

And so on and so forth. A chain of actions driven by lack of satisfaction with what there is.

b.
This "acting out of lack of satisfaction" is the driving force behind consumerism.

People are no longer satisfied with what they have. They don't appreciate that they can even where shoes, let alone extremely comfortable ones like crocs So they/we always want 'more'.

When I think of 'simple' people, I think of the folks deep in the country who I've known over the years. They are perfectly satisfied wearing the same pair of jeans for a few years until they completely wear out and can't be repaired anymore. Then they go to the general store and buy whatever brand is offered. NO regard for brands, no desire to 'upgrade'.

This idea that we have to continually strive for more, bigger, better, easier, STUFF is exactly the opposite of simple.

Yeah Hot water is nice and easy and everybody wants it. But if you have to ADD it to your boat, you are subtracting from the simplicity factor. Everytime you add a piece of gear or a new system, the boat becomes that much more complicated, and the energy you spend (including the energy to earn the money you spent) has increased that much more.

Simple is being happy with what you have. Being satisfied knowing that you can move foreward without buying a new pair of shoes, or a bigger nicer gps system...
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Old 22-04-2012, 09:03   #456
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I was catching up with the posts above and I found I do not quite accept the Eastern/Western argument (seen as much analysis vs. much trial).

I believe, in simplicity, talent is of utter importance while analysis and production are secondary values. We tend to think of analysis vs. trail while de facto there tends to be pure genius behind most of the simple things. I believe it takes a special kind of beautiful mind to evoke simple things. Then come the analysts and the builders, but only then. Emc2 is there not because Einstein had so much time for analysis neither because he tried and improved so many times. It is there because he was a genius.

Is genius a mix, or related to, analytical or building skills? I doubt it.

Think fine arts. Designers of simple and beautiful solutions are artists. IMHO.

Then we can think about what level of genius it takes to design the air we breathe, the water we drink, the gravity and displacement forces that keep our ship upright ...

This is also where the simple & the cheap come together - the wind is still free and the oceans are large enough for all of us to go sailing. Stick to the basics and you will sail simply, cheaply and beautifully.

b.
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Old 22-04-2012, 09:35   #457
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
I'm all for simple, but it looks to me like thinking here is screwed up...

The more simply people want to cruise, the more complicated they make it.
Loading jugs into a dinghy, rowing ashore, filling them, loading them back, is complicated. Simple is flicking the switch on the watermaker.
Rubbing sticks together to start a fire to cook a meal is complicated. Turning the knob on the self igniting propane stove is simple.
Using a bucket for a head, then getting rid of it is much more complicated than hitting the vacuflush
I too was getting caught up on my favorite topic. I would like to comment on this, hopefully without taking it out of context. Simple, for me, means that I can tear it completely down, find the problem and repair it myself. Hopefully very cheaply. Yes modern conviences as stated above are useful, and I must admit I have quite a few on my boat. But that is slowly changing. As I wear them out, or they break, they are being replaced with simpler systems. The watermaker is gone, as is the genset. I still have a propane stove, but it and the hot/cold pressurized water time is limited. The Levac is staying. Having a simple boat does not mean you are a simple man. On the contrary, it takes a very talented person to sail and run all systems smoothly. We are really asking for the sailor to operate on a higher plane. The things that make life easy eventually lull you into a never ending sleep of TV watching.... but I digress.
It can be done without much outside help. The beauty of self- reliance, simple sailing cannot be underestimated.
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Old 22-04-2012, 09:41   #458
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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This "acting out of lack of satisfaction" is the driving force behind consumerism.

People are no longer satisfied with what they have. They don't appreciate that they can even where shoes, let alone extremely comfortable ones like crocs So they/we always want 'more'.

When I think of 'simple' people, I think of the folks deep in the country who I've known over the years. They are perfectly satisfied wearing the same pair of jeans for a few years until they completely wear out and can't be repaired anymore. Then they go to the general store and buy whatever brand is offered. NO regard for brands, no desire to 'upgrade'.
CMC is a man after my own heart, but I will differ with him on one small part. I think simple people are really very sophisticated in some ways. I take the same philosophy on stuff, but I research out the best quality, buy it, then wear it out (if I can). I still have an Anorak from REI I bought when I was 15. This frees you from going shopping (YEAH !)
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:01   #459
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Speaking of making simple things complicated, how come you haven't bought a boat yet? How about at least an update?
Sheeesh Doodles... I'm trying. Silly owner thinks his boat is worth what it would be if perfect. Silly me thinks it's worth pennies because of all the work it needs... Silly broker thinks the owner is being difficult and that I'm an opportunist... Looks like we're doing an Indian rain dance...

In keeping with this thread, my position is simple.
I've got $xx and want more boat than I can afford...
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:07   #460
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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CMC is a man after my own heart, but I will differ with him on one small part. I think simple people are really very sophisticated in some ways. I take the same philosophy on stuff, but I research out the best quality, buy it, then wear it out (if I can). I still have an Anorak from REI I bought when I was 15. This frees you from going shopping (YEAH !)
I'm the same way. I like to research and make definitive choices on what I'm going to own. I prefer clothing (and pretty much everything else) to last as long as possible, be as comfortable as possible, and also be as low-priced and as easily replaceable as possible.

So I shop at thrift stores for my clothes, and other things like kitchen wares..
I've found some amazing stuff at thrift stores for literally pennies on the $10.

(just as an example) I have a North Face rain jacket, two pairs of North Face hiking pants (that zip off into shorts), and a Helly Hanson Rain suit, that I paid a total of about $15 the whole lot I didn't buy them because of the brand names, but because from my research (and experience) I know they are high quality and precisely what I wanted.

I buy almost everything used. I'm able to do this because 'consumerists' like to throw away perfectly good stuff everytime they upgrade to something 'better' I paid $20 for my galley foot pump (brand new in the box). I assume someone along the line decided an electric pump was 'better'. The other day I bought a Davis radar reflector and a davis windex for $12 (for both), because somebody upgraded to a radar and anemometer/windmeter thingy.

So I'm all for other people living their complex lives, it makes my life simpler life much easier
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:17   #461
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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I too was getting caught up on my favorite topic. I would like to comment on this, hopefully without taking it out of context. Simple, for me, means that I can tear it completely down, find the problem and repair it myself. Hopefully very cheaply. Yes modern conviences as stated above are useful, and I must admit I have quite a few on my boat. But that is slowly changing. As I wear them out, or they break, they are being replaced with simpler systems. The watermaker is gone, as is the genset. I still have a propane stove, but it and the hot/cold pressurized water time is limited. The Levac is staying. Having a simple boat does not mean you are a simple man. On the contrary, it takes a very talented person to sail and run all systems smoothly. We are really asking for the sailor to operate on a higher plane. The things that make life easy eventually lull you into a never ending sleep of TV watching.... but I digress.
It can be done without much outside help. The beauty of self- reliance, simple sailing cannot be underestimated.
The trouble is we're all control freaks. We like things simple so we can stay in control. Cruisers probably more than most.
But, nature isn't simple, evolution moved us away from simple, and I kinda like the result. I like that I can see. I don't care that our eyes are incredibly complex. I like that I can hear the wind in the sails or good music, or enjoy taste of red wine and an infinite variety of food.
But none of it is simple... and I don't want to be an amoeba again...

I'd rather put a bit of effort into maintaining 'complex' so it works simply
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:35   #462
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

CMC- your not going to need that radar reflector (didn't you pay attention to the Cruisers Essentials?? ). I'm giving mine away. But the windex- that is worth 12 bucks!
Then again, I had a boat that just had tape recorder ribbon on the standing rigging. But that is too tacky, you kinda loose the art thing.
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:38   #463
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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CMC- your not going to need that radar reflector (didn't you pay attention to the Cruisers Essentials?? ). I'm giving mine away. But the windex- that is worth 12 bucks!
I think I'll keep it and use it when offshore in conjunction with the C.A.R.D. detector...

There are many convincing arguments that advocate reflectors. If I decide for mself it doesn't work, I'll sell it for $20
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Old 22-04-2012, 12:01   #464
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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I think I'll keep it and use it when offshore in conjunction with the C.A.R.D. detector...

There are many convincing arguments that advocate reflectors. If I decide for mself it doesn't work, I'll sell it for $20
I dunno much about Radar Reflectors, but I find standing on deck in only yer underpants whilst waving arms around and shouting tends to keep folks away nicely .

That approach, especially when used when family visit, also simplifies the Xmas card list . and becoming an Atheist makes Xmas cheaper .
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Old 22-04-2012, 12:12   #465
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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I dunno much about Radar Reflectors, but I find standing on deck in only yer underpants whilst waving arms around and shouting tends to keep folks away nicely .

That approach, especially when used when family visit, also simplifies the Xmas card list . and becoming an Atheist makes Xmas cheaper .
If I forgo the underpants, I can reflect even the slightest hint of light, but the lack of a jaggedly sculpted body and sharp edges only helps to absorb radar frequencies instead of reflecting them
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