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Old 16-04-2012, 18:04   #406
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
(...) I love Lin's point about sitting offshore 5 hours waiting for a breeze to get in to harbor. Many skippers I sail with fire up the donk when the breeze drops below 5 knots. I have no problem bobbing along going nowhere. Until the weekend clock starts its final countdown, then its motor back to the marina. (...)
Doh.

I think as long as the boat is inshore and the harbour is in reach the skipper may have a reason to use the engine. Like reaching the port or anchorage before dark.

But this option is open only to boats with engine. Those without engine have no such choice.

b.
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Old 16-04-2012, 18:37   #407
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

As others have mentioned, deprivation assumes one feels deprived. Simplicity isn't a factor.
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Old 16-04-2012, 19:47   #408
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Simple I think means different things to different people. Some people think only having one 42" TV is simple. Me, Ok, I do have refrigeration, which is a big energy hog. But for me at least for the moment, its on my simple list. Though I don't have or need a windlass, watermaker,TV, outboards, etc.

I have the refrig, and a netbook with wifi, plus a radio and other sailing paraphernalia, an autopilot (I singlehand alot) a gps and a sextent (with a HP50 calculator with sight reduction software) and a rowing dinghy, thats about it and really all I need to be happy. Well Ok some makeup and hair products too and cat food for Mr. Grumpy.. Lordy, Maybe I am high maintenance.......

Having a simple, low cost boat allows me to live and cruise now. Living simply, means I don't need to work as hard or that much (if at all), to keep the cruising kitty up. I do not feel deprived at all. I just don't need the excess complications to be happy.

I would love a lofram windlass, yet the $3000+ cost is six months cruising. I would rather be cruising using the jib winch as a windlass. So simple allows me more time for cruising. Really anything I buy has to be weighted against cruising time. Boat safety and maintenance need to be satisfied, but.. well even my shoe budget very low.

To me, part of the joy of being on a boat is to NOT have a schedule or timetable. But then we are all different and there are many paths to happiness. To each their own.
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Old 16-04-2012, 21:12   #409
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Thanks all of you for your imput. Imagine two extremes: in one case you are sailing with water jugs, canned cold stew and a national geographic map. Maybe you have a windup am radio for fixes. The other is a nice bendy with all the bells and whistles. In one case you are in a ritzy hotel, the other you are uncomfortable but you have a true sailing experience.
What % of each is the best?

I have some bells and a few whistles but we live aboard so no ritzy hotels. I have a comfy bed, home cooked meals and great view- all much better than the hotels anyway. I have an engine but still love bobbing around the bay on days with little wind --my favorite thing! We have water tanks, a water maker & thanks to a CF thread , an ice maker. It will save my back carrying ice for for sundowners.

I think we're about 60% b&w to 40% basics. I think I have a true sailing experience because, well, I sail. I don't think cold stew and water jugs has anything to do with sailing. If you are in an average boat (not a 100+ where you are stories above the water with crew) and enjoying it, to me, it's a true sailing experience. I enjoy my version & hope you do as well. We all see the same sunsets, swim in the same water and the sun shines on all of us the same. And even more, I promise to share ice & cold beer at the next anchorage.
Cheers!
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Old 16-04-2012, 22:27   #410
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I didn't mean to imply that you cannot have a "true" sailing experience on a decked out yacht (even though I did say that). I have chartered such a yacht, and then I have sailed a small boat with only a bed and sink and head. IMHO- the simple boat gave me the best sailing and I learned the most. Most of the time in our 40 ft Bendy or Island Packet, the team wanted to watch DVD's and occasionally ask "when are we going to get there". So this assumption was from my own experience.
I have also noted that as has been mentioned by others, as more conviences get placed on your boat the more you are tied to fixing those things. And usually those things are complex enough that you are not going to be fixing them, thus you are tied to going from one busy port to another.
As one shipwright shared with me in Friday Harbor- "most plumbing I get paid 60 hour, but if it has anything to do with poop I charge 100 hour and they are glad to pay it." That was just before I threw out my electosan toilet and replaced it with a Lavac.
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Old 16-04-2012, 22:52   #411
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I would love to be able to get a sailboat and escape from the daily issues. I just need to find one that doesn't require maintenance...
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Old 16-04-2012, 23:09   #412
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I think it's a valid assumption. There's a difference between a 'nice' boat, and one with too many gadgets, toys, and complex systems that all take away from the 'experience'. Not just the experience of sailing, but the experience of appreciating your environment, the locals, your time, each and every moment...

The more 'stuff' a person has, the more there is to take away from the pure enjoyment of any given moment. Distractions... we mentioned this before in this thread. Obviously there is an element of relativity, but I think it's a universal 'truth' that less physical and mental distractions allow more room in ones life to appreciate the moment and your surroundings.

Sailing and cruising requires a certain amount of stuff, but not much. So everything past a certain amount we deem 'luxuries'. It's a luxury to take a hot shower. But how much more would a hot shower be appreciated if it wasn't so easily available? The more 'luxuries' there are, there more we take for granted. The value of appreciation... How much more do you appreciate eating a fish you caught yourself vs. one you paid for in a restaurant? How much more would you appreciate making a landfall if you've navigated it 'by hand' instead of following a computer screen? (not knocking gps, it's just an example )

I don't know if I'm making a point or not... But the idea of 'value' is very important to living a simple lifestyle. Some people will say they value their watermaker, but do they really? Doesn't a tank full of rainwater create a much higher level of appreciation for what you're drinking? Won't you value your motor more if you're the one who puts all the hard work into keeping it running, instead of just paying someone else to do it?

So there's this element of 'stuff' taking away from our experience by occupying our mind and our attention. And that same stuff devalues itself via our complacency that comes from 'ease of use'. Then there's the element of 'reward' for a good day of work, or self sufficiency on any level.

So it's logical (and agreed upon by many philosophers and great thinkers throughout history) that by removing some of these 'luxuries' from our life, we have a greater propensity for enjoying life itself. Enjoying the moment you're in instead of the stuff you own.... I think this is the foundation for simplicity.
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Old 17-04-2012, 00:52   #413
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Living the simple cruising life is just like following an exercise program or eating a good balanced diet. They mean sacrifice and commitment to a long term goal as opposed to more immediate gratifications. You need to give up stuff at some level and therein lies the rub. I think Moitessier said it best when he said ...

"to feast at the great table, you must have a great hunger and a willingness to go unfed. Only one in a million have both."

Maybe a bit of an exaggeration but like exercise and diet, most won't be willing to make the sacrifices to achieve these mystical rewards of the simple life. People are forever saying they want more quality time in their lives but at the same time aren't willing to give up any of what's taking their time and energy currently. No pain or gain. IMHO
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Old 17-04-2012, 06:33   #414
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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... When does simplicity become deprivation? Example? ...
If by “simplicity”, we mean eliminating anything that is unnecessary (frivolous wants); deprivation might begin when we eliminate things that are necessary (fundamental needs).
I need water, but don't need Evian.
I need clothes, but don't need Armani.
I need food, but don't need a pound of steak per meal.
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Old 17-04-2012, 06:52   #415
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Living the simple cruising life is just like following an exercise program or eating a good balanced diet. They mean sacrifice and commitment to a long term goal as opposed to more immediate gratifications. You need to give up stuff at some level and therein lies the rub. I think Moitessier said it best when he said ...

"to feast at the great table, you must have a great hunger and a willingness to go unfed. Only one in a million have both."

Maybe a bit of an exaggeration but like exercise and diet, most won't be willing to make the sacrifices to achieve these mystical rewards of the simple life. People are forever saying they want more quality time in their lives but at the same time aren't willing to give up any of what's taking their time and energy currently. No pain or gain. IMHO
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Old 17-04-2012, 07:06   #416
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Old 17-04-2012, 07:09   #417
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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(...) I would love a lofram windlass, yet the $3000+ cost is six months cruising. (...)
Having fixed / replaced a couple of electric winches on other people's boats, I would say, as long as one can, for simplicity sake, avoid them.

Sure, when the boat is big or when one goes single handed a lot, then an electric winch is actually making things simple.

So, it is as you said: different things to different people.

But between you and me: if you can safely do without an electric windlass, do without one!

b.
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Old 17-04-2012, 07:10   #418
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

the best philosophy about sailing is maybe just to get out there and do it rather than talking about it!!!!
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Old 17-04-2012, 07:21   #419
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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If by “simplicity”, we mean eliminating anything that is unnecessary (frivolous wants); deprivation might begin when we eliminate things that are necessary (fundamental needs).
I need water, but don't need Evian.
I need clothes, but don't need Armani.
I need food, but don't need a pound of steak per meal.
OK. But this is a most basic take at things. This is what a philosopher would answer (much as they would probably be less willing to live it). You sort of dodged the issue.

What about the mental (emotional or spiritual) side of things? I believe, to many people, deprivation starts when they cannot have THE thing (say Evian).

Sometimes people commit suicide when they cannot be with their beloved one. Tell them: 'you need a (man/woman), but you do not need (John/Brenda)'.

So, to me, the deprivation thing seems to extend further out into the field - beyond the air to breathe and the water to drink.

b.
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Old 17-04-2012, 07:30   #420
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Living the simple cruising life is just like following an exercise program or eating a good balanced diet. They mean sacrifice and commitment to a long term goal as opposed to more immediate gratifications. You need to give up stuff at some level and therein lies the rub.
I get what you're saying Doodles, but for me there is a sweet spot between what we're calling simple-living, and the other end (luxury-living?) where the sacrifices are minimal. I guess that's what we're all struggling to find and define here; that perfect balance between:
  • complexity vs simplicity
  • lots vs little
  • enough vs over-abundance
  • inexpensive living vs high-cost living
  • etc.
That sweet spot will be different for each individual, which is why we often bash heads here. It's not about living simply, b/c simple is a relative term. However, we all aim to live consciously; to live in that sweet spot.
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