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Old 10-04-2012, 02:50   #301
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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I am not going to begrudge you your refrigerators, Foolish has done an nice summary. And DOJ cracks me up. I would just comment on his post (285) Simple does not mean you cannot support a good economy. If I dingy in and buy fresh food from the locals, they will get my money just the same. If fact, buying from Best Buy (or Harrods) I have no idea where my money goes. Living simply puts the money often in local pockets, which is kinda a side light of this philosophy. Oh, I know where the money goes when I get in debt. (and it's not pretty)
Dave, am I the savage in Brave New World? Perhaps, but I am comfortable with that.
What I was saying was that on an individual basis it doesn't matter economically to a society what you do - but if everyone did the same then the whole economy would look like that of Haiti (everyone there buys food and most "live simply").....that may be considered by some to be a good thing ("think of the Penguins" ), but it will have a negative effect on you economically - ain't too many Haitains living the carefree life of a Cruiser around the world.......

Bottom line is that someone (many of them!) have to do the dull / boring stuff to create the wealth (for the Society) that enables you to choose to live the simple and cheap lifestyle aboard a boat. You may or may not have done "Your shift" on that side, but that don't really matter (except to you and your pocket)......you just need (many) others to continue doing that.

BTW not meant to be personal - "you" is a broad term
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:16   #302
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Spot on DOJ. We cruise on the back of others.

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Old 10-04-2012, 03:49   #303
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Come now, you are only cruising on the back of others if you're on the dole or don't pay back your debts (like college loans ..). If you are paying your way, somewhere along the line you made your economic contribution to society. Just because you are living an alternative lifestyle doesn't mean you didn't earn it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:28   #304
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Come now, you are only cruising on the back of others if you're on the dole or don't pay back your debts (like college loans ..). If you are paying your way, somewhere along the line you made your economic contribution to society. Just because you are living an alternative lifestyle doesn't mean you didn't earn it.
Whether you are on the dole watching Oprah or sitting on a boat living off the fat of your past efforts is much the same - you are personally economically inactive (and yes, I am discounting the money in your bank or brokerage account - as this is usually "invested" (lol!) in "the market", on things that few (if any!) actually understand, it's mostly betting not actual wealth creation - which is what a society needs - and for that you need people doing stuff).

To be blunt, if everyone sits on a boat twiddling thumbs / drinking beer - there will no one left onshore to keep the lights on and sooner rather than later the cash to do so (by employing a nice man from China? ) will also run out. $1 Dollar = 1 Thai Baht would probably impact on your plans........certainly would on mine!

But as I said before, not meant personally - I make my own choices based on what is good for me (and mine), but that don't mean there isn't a cost somewhere else even if not directly from my own pocket.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:45   #305
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Whether you are on the dole watching Oprah or sitting on a boat living off the fat of your past efforts is much the same - you are personally economically inactive (and yes, I am discounting the money in your bank or brokerage account - as this is usually "invested" (lol!) in "the market", on things that few (if any!) actually understand, it's mostly betting not actual wealth creation - which is what a society needs - and for that you need people doing stuff).

To be blunt, if everyone sits on a boat twiddling thumbs / drinking beer - there will no one left onshore to keep the lights on and sooner rather than later the cash to do so (by employing a nice man from China? ) will also run out. $1 Dollar = 1 Thai Baht would probably impact on your plans........certainly would on mine!

But as I said before, not meant personally - I make my own choices based on what is good for me (and mine), but that don't mean there isn't a cost somewhere else even if not directly from my own pocket.
Not much chance that many are going to sit on their boats twiddling thumbs/drinking beer ... most are going to get hungry and need to go back to work. At least that seems to be the way it has worked in the past.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:25   #306
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Not much chance that many are going to sit on their boats twiddling thumbs/drinking beer ... most are going to get hungry and need to go back to work. At least that seems to be the way it has worked in the past.

Which is what "you" need them to do .
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:43   #307
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

David, all things need maintenance, be it a house, a business, a bank account or a boat, so the flaw in your argument is that you are supposing everything will remain static allowing one to ‘twiddle’.

Money in a savings account earns little interest these days, so whatever legal enterprise a cruising person does to maintain liquidity in freedom chips, be it part time consulting or investments... does have a knock on effect and creates jobs.

Those on the dole or watching oprah are the twiddlers waiting for some more entitlement, which is why many sailors work hard to get and stay away from them.

This is quite interesting:
In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh ,had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.


A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.


From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.


During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:49   #308
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Which is what "you" need them to do .
Exactly, its sort of a symbiotic relationship. They provide the product/work and I the consumption. Kind of like the U.S. and China. We each need each other to do what we do; otherwise, the system grinds to a halt.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:08   #309
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

To get this back to a cruiser's perspective (before it gets nasty) The need to do something with people has been addressed a while back. Nobody wants to sit out there being a oceanic hermit. (or very few will) We all get involved with something or some culture, and I think we can contribute to that culture if we are careful. History is full of explorers giving disease (either physically or spiritually) to natives because they are not careful.
I would say (as it has already been said on this thread) that thoughfulness is part of the mindset of sailing simply. Call it sailing clean if you will. No impact, meaningful life ideal.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:50   #310
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

My statement was a simplification

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naw, add to that

people on defined benefit pensions = Retirement
redundancy payoffs. = kinda retirement
once off financial gains = still have to save em
inherited wealth = someone elses savings
funded by debt, who cares there still out there having fun. = OK you got me on this one.

many ways bill,

dave
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:43   #311
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I will subscribe to Newt's way. As Cohen sang: true love leaves no traces. Much as he did not seem to live what he prayed.

Very often, prior to jumping into anything (like trying to improve local primitive communities with our modern western things) one can do a lot of good by sitting the early urge out and asking a question to oneself: 'is this possible I will contribute more by non action?

In extreme cases, this may mean refraining from sailing to a location. For if we all sail to a pristine place, how long will it remain pristine?

Luckily, not all our choices are this extreme, but the rule sounds wise to me: think twice before you act (go, touch, help, whatever).

BTW non-action seems like a beautiful case of simplicity.

b.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:53   #312
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Barnie, I used to contribute medical care to some tribes in the Amazon. We would go in and try to undo what prospectors, explorers and drug runners would do to these untouched tribes. It was often not very pretty. In order to avoid even bigger problems we often just worked in the city- and let the natives come to us by canoe. That way we did not exposed them to anything they did not already see with their own eyes.
Leave them alone- unless they ask you to come. Not only simple but polite.
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Old 10-04-2012, 14:16   #313
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Dr Newt gets my vote again. Come to think of it, I don't think he has ever not gotten my vote. Visualize this, cruise ships disgorging thousands of passengers on some of the remote islands of Micronesia, what a sorry state that would be. Even Air Mike is careful about exposure in this area. Few cruisers visit, and I think the local inhabitants are better off for these policies.
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Old 10-04-2012, 15:39   #314
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Dr Newt gets my vote again. Come to think of it, I don't think he has ever not gotten my vote. Visualize this, cruise ships disgorging thousands of passengers on some of the remote islands of Micronesia, what a sorry state that would be. Even Air Mike is careful about exposure in this area. Few cruisers visit, and I think the local inhabitants are better off for these policies.
Actually we HAVE seen the result. A primitive but stable culture of living off the land in small family units and low crime rate becomes a third world cesspool where the main industries become Bars and prostitution, and with the family structure destroyed theft and drugs become the norm.

Even giving money, and modern gadgets unbalances these societies. As it draws a line between those who have these items and those who don't, and the only way to get them is further interaction with unprincipled tourists, that often take advantage of naive young natives who don't realize the relative low value of these items.

I haven't personally traveled to polynesia yet, but I have read accounts of those who have been there decades ago and compaired them to recent trips.

They have universally stated the Islanders lives haven't been much improved by constant exposure to the Least common denomenator of western culture.
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Old 10-04-2012, 15:44   #315
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

When I get out cruising again, I hope to carefully and with respect, visit Yap, Mog Mog, and a few others. Here's to hoping they stay pristine and unencumbered.
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