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Old 26-03-2012, 12:04   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic
No matter how well you wrap it in terms of freedom or social responsibility, your lack of actual choice just makes it a rationalization
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" J.Joplin

I'm not so sure about your philosophical reasoning. I've been described (ridiculed) as a minimalist. But I am not short of means, by no means. Perhaps nobody with a boat is a minimalist. Only the family living in a discarded box qualifies?
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Old 26-03-2012, 12:19   #17
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

philosophy??
i just sail using that which i can realistically afford--my boat is way too big, but is perfect, my budget is way too low, but is practical, and my gato is way to spoiled, but is perfect, as he is an early warning unit, and a shredder of invaders..i use no one else's philosophy, and all theories are my own....
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Old 26-03-2012, 19:46   #18
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

What about scrapping a head and just using a bucket? Anybody doing that long term? And how about going without a frig and heater?
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Old 26-03-2012, 21:53   #19
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Connie and I have been working and cruiseing for over 25 yrs, we started with a steel colvin with hamocks and a camp stove, when we sold that boat we had it all from genny to ice maker ect, it all was gotten on the cheap by trade or working to pay for it ! We have been trading up and selling boats for the last 3 yrs working our way back to sailing again. Anyone who wants to can cruise if they REALLY want to!! and we raised some kids along the way !!LOL
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Old 26-03-2012, 21:55   #20
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

And Newt, Connie says don't mention a bucket !!(she had to use one for a couple of yrs) she won't again the first thing she looks at is the head !!
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Old 26-03-2012, 23:01   #21
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" J.Joplin

I'm not so sure about your philosophical reasoning. I've been described (ridiculed) as a minimalist. But I am not short of means, by no means. Perhaps nobody with a boat is a minimalist. Only the family living in a discarded box qualifies?

Nah… sounds good but freedom is all about having the moral and financial ability to say No!

There are a few threads going about… my “Entitlement…Newt’s “Philosophy” and one from Randy about living on the Cheep.
I think that they are somehow connected, when developed countries get over-regulated and too expensive for normal budgets.

To maintain the cruising dream, hard choices are made to either raise your net worth to adjust for this inflation, move elsewhere that is cheaper, or reduce your expectations to just a minimalist approach, which I contend is more or less the same as moving to a 3rd world location.

As the son of a Scottish coal miner, I prefer to think of myself as Thrifty…. as opposed to Cheap! It means I want value for what I receive in return and has little to do with budget, but with priorities.

If you have to get yourself into debt, then your priority is not freedom

I much prefer barter between friends as part of an honest negotiation where skills are exchanged and promises are made and lived up to.

That can be either in your career or in life and has all to do with maintaining that ability to say no to each other without getting your nickers in a twist.
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Old 27-03-2012, 07:00   #22
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Thats assuming you have the ability to 'raise your net worth'. Most normal westerners are stuck in the work/spend/work/spend cycle. It would require many years of saving, AKA retirement, to do it 'right'. The only way out is to change your philosophy and break that cycle immediately.

I could have made a 10 year savings plan, and while still forgoing retirement, could have spent a few years cruising quite comfortably and making a nice circumnavigation of it. The choice I made was to change my way of life. To break that cycle. And to have a little faith...

I think the main difference for most people is they have that 'third world' mentality that you're speaking of. Equating the lack of funds with desperation and destitution. But when you choose to live that way, it's not the same. If you learn to find the pleasure in life, it doesn't have to cost money to be happy, or to be free. It's a pleasure to wake up on the water everyday, a pleasure to eat simple foods, a pleasure to bike to work, to row to shore, to wash by hand...working a job has more purpose now than it ever has before, and money has less value than ever before.

Some people might look at me and think 'third world'. But I look at them and think 'wasted life'. The pursuit of material gain is a useless endeavor. But the pursuit of life's simple pleasures is a cause worthy of sacrifice. I'd prefer to spend the next 40 years living simply and pursing new dreams of travel and pleasure, than to wait 30 years only to enjoy an old dream for a short period of time.
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Old 27-03-2012, 08:06   #23
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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What about scrapping a head and just using a bucket? Anybody doing that long term? And how about going without a frig and heater?
Yes. I am about to move onto my 42' sailing catamaran built here in the Philippines by Nigel Roberts in Tombobo Bay. Probably about $75K into it so far. The head is opposite the helm station on the port side in the cockpit just aft of the salon bulkhead - being a catamaran the 'commode' is over the bridgedeck and consists of a large hole with a commode seat and lid (note that paper is not widely used here, just a tabo/dipper to wash with) - something that may not work in crowded marinas in first world countries. There is lots of stuff I don't have - no refrigeration, no radar, no SSB, no chart plotter (but a laptop with OpenCPM), no autopilot, no heater as it is not needed in the tropics, no watermaker, no oven, no microwave. My house battery bank is two golf cart batteries - all the lights are LED, the fans are mostly the big black brushless computer fans found in old desktops. There is no shore power stuff as there are virtually no marinas here. It will be interesting to see if I can just sail around each major island in the central Philippines - in sight of land and only during the day; hopefully anchored by 4 pm each day to spend a couple of days to a week before moving on. Of course, I first have to find a good source for used sails and learn to sail a catamaran.
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Old 27-03-2012, 10:04   #24
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I saw a Seawind for sale the other day. Lavac head, tiller with ketch rig Lots of sails,(so I can do my sheet to tiller thing and not use a autopilot) well maintained,overbuilt, blister free. Icebox and no electronics to speak of. Asking 19k
This is looking more and more appealing than two boats with tons of maintenance and electronics out the gizmo.
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Old 27-03-2012, 11:21   #25
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by Bruce626 View Post
Yes. I am about to move onto my 42' sailing catamaran built here in the Philippines by Nigel Roberts in Tombobo Bay. Probably about $75K into it so far. The head is opposite the helm station on the port side in the cockpit just aft of the salon bulkhead - being a catamaran the 'commode' is over the bridgedeck and consists of a large hole with a commode seat and lid (note that paper is not widely used here, just a tabo/dipper to wash with) - something that may not work in crowded marinas in first world countries. There is lots of stuff I don't have - no refrigeration, no radar, no SSB, no chart plotter (but a laptop with OpenCPM), no autopilot, no heater as it is not needed in the tropics, no watermaker, no oven, no microwave. My house battery bank is two golf cart batteries - all the lights are LED, the fans are mostly the big black brushless computer fans found in old desktops. There is no shore power stuff as there are virtually no marinas here. It will be interesting to see if I can just sail around each major island in the central Philippines - in sight of land and only during the day; hopefully anchored by 4 pm each day to spend a couple of days to a week before moving on. Of course, I first have to find a good source for used sails and learn to sail a catamaran.
sounds intresting, do you have some photos for us to see?
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Old 27-03-2012, 11:28   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
Thats assuming you have the ability to 'raise your net worth'. Most normal westerners are stuck in the work/spend/work/spend cycle. It would require many years of saving, AKA retirement, to do it 'right'. The only way out is to change your philosophy and break that cycle immediately.

I could have made a 10 year savings plan, and while still forgoing retirement, could have spent a few years cruising quite comfortably and making a nice circumnavigation of it. The choice I made was to change my way of life. To break that cycle. And to have a little faith...

I think the main difference for most people is they have that 'third world' mentality that you're speaking of. Equating the lack of funds with desperation and destitution. But when you choose to live that way, it's not the same. If you learn to find the pleasure in life, it doesn't have to cost money to be happy, or to be free. It's a pleasure to wake up on the water everyday, a pleasure to eat simple foods, a pleasure to bike to work, to row to shore, to wash by hand...working a job has more purpose now than it ever has before, and money has less value than ever before.

Some people might look at me and think 'third world'. But I look at them and think 'wasted life'. The pursuit of material gain is a useless endeavor. But the pursuit of life's simple pleasures is a cause worthy of sacrifice. I'd prefer to spend the next 40 years living simply and pursing new dreams of travel and pleasure, than to wait 30 years only to enjoy an old dream for a short period of time.
Im gonna call you by your name Crazy! ..like a fox !! wise words
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Old 27-03-2012, 11:45   #27
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I read Walden and at that time it most impressed me. I also loved, I still do, the things one reads in many of Krishnamurti's books: "... dude, just stop looking at the things going on in your head! look at what THERE IS!..."

Yep. What there is can not be described - it is amazing beyond description. It cannot be described, but it can be experienced. What there is is well worth giving up on the drug of the civilisation.

I cannot say there is any philosophy behind our (marginal, subsistence) sailing-living lifestyle. Of course - dodging philosophies is a sort of philosophy too. And that's where newt's post got me!

Our lifestyle is an extension of our former land-based life: we never had a car, nor a fridge, nor a mortgage ... Our apartment was more like a mountain hut ;-) where we kept all our books and CDs and piles of our trekking gear. It was our home - a place we came back to at every day's end, and after every outback adventure. And now our home is our boat.

As philosophy is the love of the truth, I strongly believe that some sailors are philosophers - people rejecting the excess and devoting their time (the most precious possession of ours) in search of whatever THERE IS. The funny part is that I can never guess who is here for a week and who for life ... at times we meet people who seem so into it and then we learn they 'found a new partner and are back to the babylon'. At other times we will meet a perfect alpha mortgage consumer sailing a charter boat ... and somewhere out there, x years down the game we run into the same person again - they never went back to their ex-life. They got a boat and they may give you a 'nuts' kind of look if you ask them about their future plans.

Bueno. So here we are, nothing like any philosophy of Simple Sailing - we sail simple because we always lived simple. We also sail simple because we wanted to sail far and at our budget the only option to go far without having to look for jobs along the way was to sail simple.

Sure thing too - when we get asked about our future plans we give people this kind of look, you know ... and then they know: there be PHILOSOPHERS.

Hugs to all ya,
barnakiel
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Old 27-03-2012, 11:48   #28
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

sometimes philosophising is a subconscious or unconscious sport.....
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Old 27-03-2012, 12:18   #29
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

(...)

Correct me if I am wrong but:
If your budget offers you a choice, then attribute it to Philosophy.
If not, then it is a Necessity in order to achieve your primary goals

(...)
I did not major in anything but I can tell you there is a logics error in your statement. I believe the philosophy people call it 'fallacy' or some such unpronounceable term.

You err where you state that choice implies philosophy and you further claim to validate such statement with the fact that there is necessity (not philosophy) when there is no choice.

Actually, these two can be completely unrelated.

Only the choice (as opposed to any choice) driven by love, or search for, the truth can be attributed to philosophy.

I would also risk the notion that necessity does not have to exclude philosophy - for even in necessity we still have the choice - the most important one - to be, or not to be.

Correct me if I am wrong ;-)

Love,
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Old 27-03-2012, 13:21   #30
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

To be in the moment, no matter what station you are in life is a choice. To be in touch with what really is- is beyond value. I think this all cruisers can agree on.
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