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Old 08-04-2012, 10:32   #241
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Think I prefered the thread when it was about sailing... (...)
vs.

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(...) But I don't think there's any line in this general sort of path which limits it to a boat.(...)
Exactly! There is no line between. The only line that exists is where our brain attempts to divide the thing into things. Otherwise, all is one, much impractical as it sounds!

;-)
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:45   #242
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Things keep breaking, that's what happens on boats, after a while I think you notice that many of the broken bits you don't miss much so ditch them. They cost money, power, space and are just a wind up when you can't find parts. So the boat evolves into a simpler but more robust set of systems. At the same time the people onboard evolve to be less reliant on constant day to day luxuries which the western advertising business insists we cannot live without.
But I don't think there's any line in this general sort of path which limits it to a boat.
Thanks for this Conachair, I think this is a useful observation about how I imagine systems will evolve on long-term cruising boats. In fact, this kinda guides us when working on our boat. When installing, or choosing to maintain, boat systems, we consciously ask:

#1. Does it respond to a real need, not just a want? (a hard thing to do ... I know).
#2. Does the tool do the job well? (not perfectly, not poorly, but reasonably well).
#3. Is the tool of sufficient quality to last? (I hate doing a job twice).
#4. Can the tool be maintained by us? (with out limited technical/mechanical skills & our limited resources).

There's no revelation here. Everyone goes through this kind of thinking, but it explains why some people end up with complex systems while others settle on simpler solutions. More resources (in skill and $$) will allow for more complex systems. In my case, I have few skills, and even less $$$, so I gravitate to simple systems (manual stuff that makes sense to me).

BTW, looking at this list, #1 is clearly the most challenging, at least for me. I know I can live quite well without a fridge, but I dearly love my cold beer ... what's a man to do ?
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:47   #243
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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vs.



Exactly! There is no line between. The only line that exists is where our brain attempts to divide the thing into things. Otherwise, all is one, much impractical as it sounds!

;-)
b.
Yep, agree completely there. If everyone in the world goes to sleep at the same time then all meaning disappears, any concept of value, good or bad - gone! Then we wake up again and start arguing like it really exists, outside the patterns of synapses firing around inside our heads

What was the question again?
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:11   #244
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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What was the question again?
This is all starting to sound like a Zen discussion on the nature of existence. As Mike and Conachair put us back on track- I'm going to go with it. Perhaps sailing simply is just learning to do without and be happy about it.

I have a number of books by Lynn and Larry. One of them lists all the stuff they put on the boat for cruising. What if I were to reproduce a list, and we see what we can do without and come up with an ultimate essentials list.
Anybody interested?
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:14   #245
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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This is all starting to sound like a Zen discussion on the nature of existence. As Mike and Conachair put us back on track- I'm going to go with it. Perhaps sailing simply is just learning to do without and be happy about it.

I have a number of books by Lynn and Larry. One of them lists all the stuff they put on the boat for cruising. What if I were to reproduce a list, and we see what we can do without and come up with an ultimate essentials list.
Anybody interested?
I'm in .
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:31   #246
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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(...) #3. Is the tool of sufficient quality to last? (I hate doing a job twice).(...)
Essential.

Simplicity does not work with poor quality choices. Be it tools or otherwise.

Just look at the wheel - so simple and yet - how well it does the job!

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:37   #247
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Interestingly, zen and tao will give two simple, but opposite, clues:

Zen : sail and like the way you sail.

Tao : sail the way you like to sail.

;-)
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:40   #248
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Dr Newt, Bill, and foolishsailor, care to see my ugly, materialistic side?

SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:44   #249
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Traveling around the world is always an education even just to see the amount of trash in paradise.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:46   #250
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post

I have a number of books by Lynn and Larry. One of them lists all the stuff they put on the boat for cruising. What if I were to reproduce a list, and we see what we can do without and come up with an ultimate essentials list.
Anybody interested?
Hmm, actually I'm not quite so sure that list thing works. It goes back to the polarization thing, all you really need is a boat which stays afloat between leaving and arriving and some way to move it. The rest is just ultimately preferences, pushed one way or another by so many factors, from personal to where you grew up with lots along the way. I think lists just lead to disagreements in the end.
General directions might be a better route. I must head read all of the Pardeys along the way. Always plenty to learn, Voyaging on a small income by Annie Hill is another good one.

Right through those is keep it simple and if at all possible be able to fix it yourself.
Which is a very good starting point
Along with be wary of relying on integrated systems, one thing goes you loose the lot.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:53   #251
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Simple is being too complicated.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:01   #252
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Hmm, actually I'm not quite so sure that list thing works. It goes back to the polarization thing, all you really need is a boat which stays afloat between leaving and arriving and some way to move it. The rest is just ultimately preferences, pushed one way or another by so many factors, from personal to where you grew up with lots along the way. I think lists just lead to disagreements in the end.
General directions might be a better route. I must head read all of the Pardeys along the way. Always plenty to learn, Voyaging on a small income by Annie Hill is another good one.

Right through those is keep it simple and if at all possible be able to fix it yourself.
Which is a very good starting point
Along with be wary of relying on integrated systems, one thing goes you loose the lot.

I agree.

I find most lists and books to not fit into my own definitions. Or at least, not in my budget. Particularly those mentioned...

I think this is the point where we have to ask ourselves where this thread is headed

Is this about philosophy? the philosophy behind cruising on a budget? or the philosophy behind cruising in general?

Either way, philosophy has little to do with equipment lists.

I'm satisfied knowing that my personal philosophies won't change much no matter what boat I come to own. I think the idea of keeping things simple is important, and I think it can be done on any reasonable sailboat.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:01   #253
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Hmm, actually I'm not quite so sure that list thing works. It goes back to the polarization thing, ... I think lists just lead to disagreements in the end.
You don't think we're mature enough to have a reasonable conversation about the value of specific cruising tools without getting into a "my way is the best way" fight?

... yeah, you're probably right .
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:10   #254
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

erm... I posted that without reading some of the other new posts.

I'll just add that my interpretation of keeping things simple has alot to do with not updating things.

If something isn't broken there's no reason to fix it. There's always a newer, better, 'thing' out there to be had. If we chase those things, our lives and our boats, will remain complicated (IMO). It's best to just make a decision on something, make it happen, see that it works, then forget about it until it breaks.

Make it work, then forget about it Move on with your life... there's too much out there to be seen to be waffling around deciding on how to make things 'better'.

I'll also concede that I'm a hypocrite by nature. I have a lot to work on, lots of stuff to do the boat, lots of money to save, lots of places to go... and I'm not making my life any easier (or simpler) by sitting here typing on the computer with you guys I find myself anchored to things I don't want to be anchored to. And yet, I'll make it work somehow...

I think today I'll start the process of refurbing my water tank. Because it's cheaper and more reasonable for me than replacing it
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:21   #255
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On tools I categorize them. Destructive tools flat bar hammer big 4 foot wrecking bar razor knife. Hand saw key hole saw hacksaw. Grabbing tools: vice grips different sizes several normal 8" size, surgical clamps different sizes and shapes, needle nose pliers, water pumps, big 3 foot aluminum pipe wrench, oil filter wrench. Constructive tools: Several sizes of adjustable wrench. Bag of English open end and bag of metric, screw drivers several 6 in one drivers, Tap and die set, spade bits, machine bits, hole saws, propane mapp gas torch. Metric and standard socket sets Electric : 2 wire strippers, 2 wire cutters dikes, 2 different sized crimp tools, voltmeters. From memory it is surprising how little is needed. Also 18 volt dreamt right angle drill normal drill and sawsall.
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