The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by weavis

Returning to topic. These things help me to define frugal.

As we grow older and wiser we realize a $300 or $30 watch - - - they both tell the same time.

Whether we carry a $300 or $30 wallet/handbag - - - the amount of money inside is the same.

Whether we drink a bottle of $300 or $30 or $3 wine - - - the hangover is the same.

Whether the house we live in is 300 or 3,000 or 30,000 sq. ft. - - - the loneliness is the same.

And we realize our true inner happiness does not come from the material things of this world.

Whether we fly first or economy class, if the plane goes down - -- we go down with it.

Whether we fly first or economy class, if the plane reaches its destination- - everyone arrives at the same time.

Well, that's a depressing way to look at things.

A $30 watch may tell the same time as a Rollex Mariner, but they are not the same.

A $30 fake Gucci bag is not the same as an authentic $2000 Gucci bag, which also happens to be a work of fine Italian art and something to be proud of and admired.

A 300 or 3,000 square foot house doesn't have to be a lonely place, depends on who occupies the house. A large 30,000 sqft house can be very enjoyable and the 300sqft house can be a depressing dump... again it depends on the occupants.

I smile more when driving a Ferrari as opposed to my 2002 Dodge Neon, maybe that means I'm happier in the more expensive car. The Neon does not provide the same adrenaline rush.

Sounds like being tight with money can also make one frugal with happiness.

[Mike OReilly]

Oh Ken ... there is tons of good research that shows that money makes little to no difference to levels of happiness. Outside of rising from abject poverty, getting more money and more expensive stuff appears to make little to no difference to most people's happiness in the medium to long term. Interestingly, suffering significant losses also has little to no impact as well.

As the old adage goes, you can't buy happiness.

Those who chose to live frugally understand this basic truth about human nature, and more importantly, about themselves.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Well, that's a depressing way to look at things.

A $30 watch may tell the same time as a Rollex Mariner, but they are not the same.

A $30 fake Gucci bag is not the same as an authentic $2000 Gucci bag, which also happens to be a work of fine Italian art and something to be proud of and admired.

A 300 or 3,000 square foot house doesn't have to be a lonely place, depends on who occupies the house. A large 30,000 sqft house can be very enjoyable and the 300sqft house can be a depressing dump... again it depends on the occupants.

I smile more when driving a Ferrari as opposed to my 2002 Dodge Neon, maybe that means I'm happier in the more expensive car. The Neon does not provide the same adrenaline rush.

Sounds like being tight with money can also make one frugal with happiness.

Depends on ones mentality.. for some.. money buys happiness..
For others.. its a way of life..

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Well, that's a depressing way to look at things.

A $30 watch may tell the same time as a Rollex Mariner, but they are not the same.

(...)

What is depressing to one is not depressive to everyone.

I wonder how percentages would fall and I think there would be more depressed people than happy ones. You cannot help this. Links between affluence and depression has long been the subject of psychological research.

Interestingly, very many people in less affluent countries, who have a $30 watch or no watch at all, seem to be the least depressive people on this planet.

Even more interestingly, I have been using a $10 Casio for navigation for years now and I would be hard pressed to believe the Rolex is more accurate. But I would believe this in the end, given a proof.

Meanwhile, the idea of my cheapo Casio being more accurate than your 10k Rolex gives me a huge ego boost, especially as long as we are chatting on a (marginally) sailing forum. I mean it, it is a wonderfully kick ass idea.

I think a nice Rolex will often give way less joy to its owner than a $10 Casio gives to any African kid. Maybe because people who buy Rolexes will hardly ever have just one. Each next stimulus must be stronger to keep pleasure at the same level. A known fact in behaviorism and a reason of many an addict fail.

I am like you. I love well made, beautiful objects. I do not care how much they cost. I am a perfect lotto winner because I will have zero qualms buying beautiful mainsails, sextants and, who knows maybe even some jewellery. Kim does too!

Why a $10 Casio Keeps Better Time Than a $10,000 Rolex

Big sunny hug from this side of the fence! ;-)

b.

[sailorchic34]

ROFL, Me thinks Ken has missed the point of weavis's post..

I don't wear a watch and never have. The truly rich turn their noses up about Rolex, as it's just too common and anyone can own one (Tom Perkins quoted, Btw) My handbag was donated (free) to me and I love it as much as any Gucci. Mine has a Pelican on the Front.... Fancy.... Never could see the point to a $2000 hand bag. It's just a thing.

I dare say I am as happy and probably Lot's happier then those in the upper middle class and beyond.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

ROFL, Me thinks Ken has missed the point of weavis's post.. .

No he hasn't.

Some of the most unhappy, lonely people I've met on this forum and in real life, also happen to be the biggest penny pinchers. A coincidence perhaps?

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to live it up and loosen one's (money) belt occasionally to bring some joy to life instead of always worrying about where the next dollar will come from or if it's OK to spend that dollar.

Most of the folks who end up buying those cheap (frugal) boats mentioned by weavis, will definitely end up cruising alone IMHO. If that's what they want... more power to them. The title seems appropriate "The Frugal Sailor" instead of "The Frugal Sailors," as in more than one person on the boat.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

I dare say I am as happy and probably Lot's happier then those in the upper middle class and beyond.

How would you know if you haven't walked in their shoes? Personally, I've found myself on the bottom rung a few times, and I can tell you from first hand experience...... it wasn't all "sunshine and lollipops" as some folks would like others to believe.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

How would you know if you haven't walked in their shoes? Personally, I've found myself on the bottom rung a few times, and I can tell you from first hand experience...... it wasn't all "sunshine and lollipops" as some folks would like others to believe.

Oddly I've been there many years ago. Made $105k for a number of years there with that engineering thingy. Had a 3500SF Queen Ann Victorian, inlaid hardwood floors. Wrap around Verranda, Lovely house. Had a few nice cars and all the trappings of success. Now I have none of it and I also have no worries. But then I use to drive without a spare tire.

You know my entire life savings only a few hundred dollars at the moment and I'm as happy if not happier then when I had $80K in the bank. I truly have no wants. I don't need or want a Gucci anything or a rolex. None of that brings happiness to me.

[JPA Cate]

It's only another opinion here, of course, but I think one of the underlying problems in this discussion is that the joyous poor-by-American --and other western countries--standards (which are generallly fairly upmarket hopes) promote the owning of *stuff*, promote the inotion that *stuff* will automatically bring happiness. Pllus, there's a bit of haziness in the definition of "happiness." For myself, I think it is more on the contentment side of the spectrum than the bliss side.

Some people feel happy and proud about having *stuff*. Some find *stuff* empty of happiness. The latter are happy when their basic needs, are met, and they are usually focused on meeting their needs, and enjoying face to face relationships with people. We are, after all, social animals, and the pursuit of *stuff* can lead us away from fulfilling relationships; and, sadly, internet relationships are a lot like pen pal relationships, you get a flavor of what a true interactive relationship with one of the people might be, but it is not the same thing at all, and I think that the social media tend to isolate us more than making us a community. How we position ourselves relative to all this is a matter of individual choice. Who would speak for the upmarket folks, if not for Kenomac? He braves the wrath of the less advantaged, while also trying to get them to allow him to wear the frugal crown. My, oh, my.

The ways in which we write about frugality unfortunately leave us open to criticisms from people who think differently, and it's obvious when offense is taken.

So, suppose, for the sake of argument, you've lived to the ripe old age of 70, and suddenly, you find yourself wanting nicer *stuff*. You've been very frugal all your life, born into a family of low middle class income. But, atypically for you, you want to have some "nicer" stuff before you die. If you've prided yourself on what you thought of as frugality, wouldn't you wonder what on earth this new affliction was?

At any rate, I think the real reason for this thread is that some people want to spend each sheckel as well as possible, live within their incomes, and enjoy their boats, small, medium sized, and large, as well as they can. Very few of us are subsistence level. If you're there, not by choice, it can be a d----d tough row to hoe, and not much easier if it's by choice, imo.

Ann, still at it, commenting on processes....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

How would you know if you haven't walked in their shoes? Personally, I've found myself on the bottom rung a few times, and I can tell you from first hand experience...... it wasn't all "sunshine and lollipops" as some folks would like others to believe.

You see but you don't read.. or you read and don't absorb.. she is walking in 'Their Shoe's'..
Personally speaking some of the best times in my life and the nicest folks I've met have been when I was down to my 'Uppers'.
A $10 plate split between two can be a whole lotta fun..
When I had 'Loadsa Money' I tended to be an obnoxious *******.. always flashing it about..

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to live it up and loosen one's (money) belt occasionally to bring some joy to life instead of always worrying about where the next dollar will come from or if it's OK to spend that dollar.

I have the Joy of a beautiful sunset, a river otter swimming by in quiet harmony with nature. No bills due and no wants or worries. I don't worry about where the next dollar will come from. Why worry. Things will work out one way or another.

Never had a money belt. Hey I got a new fancy pair of crocc's just a few months ago. And a head rebuilding kit a week ago, which brought great joy to me on the boat. See I get fancy things too.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

When I had 'Loadsa Money' I tended to be an obnoxious *******.. always flashing it about..

To me, the opposite seems true of those who seem to want to flaunt their frugal happiness, by casting rude comments towards those who disagree.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

I have the Joy of a beautiful sunset, a river otter swimming by in quiet harmony with nature. No bills due and no wants or worries. I don't worry about where the next dollar will come from. Why worry. Things will work out one way or another.

Never had a money belt. Hey I got a new fancy pair of crocc's just a few months ago. And a head rebuilding kit a week ago, which brought great joy to me on the boat. See I get fancy things too.

Sailorchic,

My comments were generic and not directed towards you personally. I was responding to what you'd written. I'm glad you're happy, and I'm glad to know we have something in common with our past history. But most folks I've observed and spoken to who are operating on a shoestring budget... appear to be quite miserable, at least that's what they tell me.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

To me, the opposite seems true of those who seem to want to flaunt their frugal happiness, by casting rude comments towards those who disagree.

[JPA Cate]

But most folks I've observed and spoken to who are operating on a shoestring budget... appear to be quite miserable, at least that's what they tell me.

Kenomac, had you considered that those low bucks people might have been in the wrong place for them?

Or, had you considered you're playing Margaret Mead to their Pacific Islander? totally oblivious to what they're doing?

Over our many years of cruising, we've met plenty of apparently happy almost-no-bucks-ers, although most of them were younger, not the 50-60 plus crowd. Also, we do not go to mega yacht anchorages, their swinging circles are too large.....

Ann