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Old 09-10-2016, 17:42   #421
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Frugal:
We are staying in a Mexican hotel, in San Carlos. Free wifi, cable tv. Pool. Rooms are clean, furnishings are simple but comfy. We have a semi private patio and ocean view. One one person speaks English so the room come with free Spanish language lessons. Coffee maker and bottled water in the room. $25.00 per night. Compare to Marina Terra, $70.00 per night.
Marina Terra is a little nicer but just in appearance. It's a lille closer to the water. We save 45.00 because location is not quite as convenient and it's not as "pretty". Winner winner chicken dinner.

Frugal to me is putting money into what I actually value. The things that are less important I'm OK with cheap or doing without. But I'm cheap too. I spent money for new keens, but I bought them on sale even though the color wasn't perfect. I also bought nearly new shorts, Royal Robins, Columbia, and some other top brand for $3.00 each at the good will.
Oh, and Jim and I share many meals when we go out because we simply can not eat what they bring us if we have a meal each. No complaints from our waitresses because we tip well. We value good service over wasted food.
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Old 09-10-2016, 17:43   #422
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Trying to find a sub 35 foot boat under 20 years old in the UK would not be easy.
Marketing manager of Westerly told me just before they went under for the last time that the market was flooded with used ones and new ones were impossible to sell.
Those used ones that he mentioned are now at least +/- 30 years old.
So yes, slim pickings if you want quality. Even that Longbow mentioned yesterday had a nasty case of 'Westerly Droop'.
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Old 09-10-2016, 17:44   #423
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by brownoarsman View Post
Must get to England one of these days and buy up all your inexpensive catamarans! Of course, that would not be frugal, so maybe only just one

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As I said above, not for the frugal sailor. Some Catamarans really are money pits.
Each vessel must be awarded merit on its individual state of repair. I dont mind spending on something that is intrinsically sound but required cosmetic work or a change of rigging etc... but I draw the line at a certain level.

Its all about skills and willingness to work without having to rebuild from the ground up. For example a friend of mine is a mechanic. He bought a vessel with a blown engine and fixed it inexpensively...

Some who are good with carpentery buy a boat that needs a new deck laying or interior fixing... the boat looks bad and the professional cost is horrendous, however being able to do oneself saves a huge amount of capital on the purchase price....
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Old 09-10-2016, 18:07   #424
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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As I said above, not for the frugal sailor. Some Catamarans really are money pits.
Without a doubt, any used boat (and most new boats) will need a going over to make sure any work involved can be done, or afforded, by the person doing the buying! Though I do think it was you who has a habit of posting inexpensive, small English catamarans and feeding more dreams

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Old 09-10-2016, 18:14   #425
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pirate re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Out of the sub 30ftrs the Sirocco is the best all round.. for me anyway..
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Old 09-10-2016, 18:42   #426
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownoarsman View Post
Without a doubt, any used boat (and most new boats) will need a going over to make sure any work involved can be done, or afforded, by the person doing the buying! Though I do think it was you who has a habit of posting inexpensive, small English catamarans and feeding more dreams
Wouldn't that be considered feeding a possible nightmare?

I completely rebuilt our O'Day 20 back in 1981; and even that was quite the project that ended up costing more than the purchase price. Never saw the money back when I sold the boat six years later, so I wonder if buying an old fixer upper is in fact frugal? Me thinks buying a boat that's already in good condition with fewer needed repairs is the more frugal play.
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Old 09-10-2016, 18:43   #427
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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There's nothing frugal about buying a cheaply priced piece of junk that's going to cost you more in the long run. Sometimes it pays dividends to spend a little more and buy something of quality with a solid foundation.
" the poor man pays twice".....some times trying to save a buck costs two!

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Old 09-10-2016, 19:00   #428
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Wouldn't that be considered feeding a possible nightmare?

I completely rebuilt our O'Day 20 back in 1981; and even that was quite the project that ended up costing more than the purchase price. Never saw the money back when I sold the boat six years later, so I wonder if buying an old fixer upper is in fact frugal?
It all depends on the condition at purchase though, doesn't it? That particular cat looks like it has a home gas range for a stove/oven, but others that have been posted looked considerably better. And the ad said it was ready to go, and we all know that, like the internet, boat listings never lie! Hopefully you buy not the old fixer-upper, but pay the premium for something more ready-to-go.

My last adventure buying a used boat 'on the cheap' was not a phenomenal success, though did give me a few months of Florida Keys, Bahamas, and East Coast sailing in between trying to fix the diesel engine (I eventually gave up and just slapped an outboard on the back). My biggest lessons there were don't spend so much time trying to save money that you lose all your time and also that buying correctly up front matters most; so your points are well-taken.

My cruising has been in a boat without a lot of creature comfort, and is not at all frugal (about $20k net for six to eight months when I was cruising), so I have the worst of all worlds! Dictated by my condition, unfortunately. I usually work in 1-2 year bursts, and then have a few months to kick around. Unless I want to stay local, with the small-boat long-term charter market being what it is (i.e. non-existent), the options are generally find a crew position, buy something cheap enough that you can give it away at the end, or accept up front that you will lose a possibly significant amount of money when you sell. My hope is that I'll be able to sail more of the world with more time spent in each place than the typical charter vacation, but only time will tell.
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Old 09-10-2016, 20:36   #429
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Yes, buying the cheapest thing, be it a car, a chartplotter, or a boat, may not be the a frugal choice. Often it is not. But so too with buying the most expensive car, chartplotter or boat. Buying a new expensive boat that puts you into deep hock with the bank may be as foolish as buying an old POS.

Generic or broad-sweeping contrasts say nothing useful in this discussion. If you want a general statement, I would say buying a quality-built boat that is in good shape, and that will do what you need it to do (not more, not less), is how a frugal person approaches this choice.

BTW, value is not only measured in dollars. The whole fixation with "getting your money back" misses all the other values a boat can bring.
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Old 09-10-2016, 21:57   #430
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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If I never see another frost in my life, I'll be more than happy
Living here in the PNW, if I never see another frost in my life, I'll be dead in a couple of months !
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:59   #431
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Yes, buying the cheapest thing, be it a car, a chartplotter, or a boat, may not be the a frugal choice. Often it is not. But so too with buying the most expensive car, chartplotter or boat. Buying a new expensive boat that puts you into deep hock with the bank may be as foolish as buying an old POS.

Generic or broad-sweeping contrasts say nothing useful in this discussion. If you want a general statement, I would say buying a quality-built boat that is in good shape, and that will do what you need it to do (not more, not less), is how a frugal person approaches this choice.

BTW, value is not only measured in dollars. The whole fixation with "getting your money back" misses all the other values a boat can bring.
So then, what's wrong with someone buying a "quality-built boat" like an Oyster, Swan, Hallberg Rassey etc, "that is in good shape, and that will do what you need it to do (not more, not less,)?" Which "is how a frugal person [may] approach this choice.". Or is it the cost or make of the boat that troubles you?

Looking for a good return on an investment should be the essence of making a good frugal decision.
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Old 10-10-2016, 04:42   #432
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Boats and cars depreciate in value... unless and until they become collector's items and usually by that time they are clearly not up to date with technology. Who expects to buy a boat and then sell it for more than they paid? That's insane.

How about looking at it like this... a decent sized live aboard type boat is say...$20,000 equivalent of a vacation rental and associated costs per year.... Ten years and you've saved $200K. Now look at the maintenance and mooring like the taxes and maintenance of your vacation property... could be a wash... Then put a value on the learning without having to pay tuition. Boating can be a great way to blow money!
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Old 10-10-2016, 05:15   #433
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

How about we accept that frugality is an action that can be practiced at any income level, but return to the intent of the thread. That is that we focus on boating for those with limited cash and income.

The first post outlined this intention.

People have to do the best they can with financial restrictions and the aim here is to find the middle ground to make it work for them. I think Atoll summed it up well..

time rich divided by cash poor=the frugal sailor.

Ive rebuilt boats and engines, the first one was a big saving over new and the second cost much more than I wanted to spend. That is when I realised that a careful eye on the REALITIES of the vessel rather than the dream was important. As a kid with no money spare, every purchase had to be the right one.

If I had to make an observation of good purchases for the UK coastline, for someone solo or wife and 3 kids, who spent a few days only a month with perhaps one or two overnighters, then realistically he would want something on a trailer or swinging mooring. A mono of 26 foot would be about the limit for this. There is a reason that in the UK the Westerly Centaur was the best selling boat. Bilge keels so would stand anywhere, shallow draft for the estuaries and good seakindly motion in weather.

I have one. Ive had them previously as well.

Centaurs are a little long in the tooth now but were built so well that they are still desired and can be purchased from 3K to 10K. Do I like them? No. I love them.

The shallow pocketed frugal sailor would be well advised to look hard at this marque. Amazing boat, solid and a good buy. Not fast, an ambler might describe it best but will get you anywhere and if caught out in a storm... will get you home.

Catamarans are a little different. Cost a bit more but bargains can be found. I recommend all the 70s and 80s British builds. Some I dont like cosmetically but strongly built and all on the same theme for handling. An older catalac will cost from 10k to 25K. If you have the skill set required then the cheaper priced ones will benefit from your love. If not, buy a newer older model and check properly that it is fit for the purpose.

If pushed I would put Catalac first in my choice. Second would be the 27 foot Heavenly twins. ONLY this model because of the walkthrough from the front to the back of the vessel.

Be prepared to change out the headlining and do interior wood and look at the engine and electrics. In saying that, if the aim is to do British coastal then just be sure its shipshape and do the cosmetics as you go.

Sailing can be achieved with little money and safely. It just needs careful thinking about realities and what can be done with prudent purchases or adaptions.

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Old 10-10-2016, 05:20   #434
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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Old 10-10-2016, 05:43   #435
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Frugal is going into the bar/restaurant early and taking advantage of happy hour for 4 hours during the football game!

Not being frugal would be sitting on the boat listening to the football game on the radio and then going in for dinner.
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