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Old 27-03-2015, 07:30   #196
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Well, Thomm, you've been bashing a little on those of us that spend a lot of time working on old boats, I am happy to see you have seen the light.


By the way....boat looks great!!
Thanks!

I did do it in Winter though not in the middle of sailing season, but whatever, as long as a person has an interest in something that makes them happy, it's all good I'm thinking.
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Old 27-03-2015, 08:46   #197
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Using you as an example of a "typical boat owner" would only serve to further reinforce the idea that you have to be what most people would consider wealthy to break into sailing or boating.
Based on the amount of time I spend on my boat, which means I see a lot of what "typical" boaters do; the typical boater doesn't really do any boating!

But talking about boating as being "frugal" because you can find a $2000 boat, but not talking about what it costs to use and maintain a boat is just a setup to disappointment.

BTW - you could be considered "wealthy" and "frugal" at the same time. They might even be related.
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Old 27-03-2015, 09:02   #198
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pirate re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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BTW - you could be considered "wealthy" and "frugal" at the same time. They might even be related.
Then stop justifying it already..
Its a cross many would love to bear... but some.. being square pegs in a round peg world its a case of frugal to be wealthy to be frugal..
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Old 27-03-2015, 09:17   #199
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

But I think that's the point of this thread. A frugal sailor would buy the smallest boat that meets his objectives and then make wise investments in it. For example, new sails, standing rigging, and running rigging for my 28' boat would run about $3,300. Compare that to something larger. It's all already recently replaced save the standing rigging, so I'm not doing that, but it's illustrative of the frugal go small go now mindset. If your enjoyment of cruising requires your Hunter's amenities, then you found a great deal on one so good on ya!
Cheap workarounds that aren't pretty but are functional are easy to come up with. Add a bow platform and roller for my Bruce? Ridiculous. Pvc pipe on a reinforced bow pulpit instead. No one in the Chesapeake will use all chain and an oversized Bruce so it will get sold on consignment most likely. $250 for a stainless steel BBQ and mount, and $500 for a propane system for it? Phaw. Small backyard coal burner on removable brackets for the pushpit, and crockpot and carefully watched butane camp stove.
The point is getting a small boat that satisfies what should be the objectives of 99% of sailors, that is day sailing and coastal to Caribbean cruising, doesn't have to cost a lot. And getting one with a good design eliminates a lot of the trade offs with small boats. For instance, with 25' of waterline and an 11 hp engine, I run with much bigger boats, and on a recent windless passage a 2013 Mahe 36 I was on flotilla with only gained an hour on me out of 8, (though he was running conservatively on one engine, which would have been his preference anyway). I burnt 2.5 gallons of diesel, he burnt much more. I did greatly enjoy his galley and wash off though!
At some point I'll have a bigger multihull like the Mahe, but this small monohull suits my needs for this trip, and it was a relatively painless cash outlay.


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Old 27-03-2015, 10:42   #200
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Frugal living requires that we differentiate between wants and needs...
Yep; the trick is getting wants and needs in synch… at least for me, that takes a few stubbed toes and many hours of adrenaline-free contemplation (usually while operating a sander, grinder or brush…)
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Old 27-03-2015, 13:26   #201
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

There is no logical or justifiable reason to own a boat. You cannot crunch enough numbers to make a reasonable decision to buy or not.
But if you have this insatiable need to have one then just do it. Frugal or not it will take more time and money than you planned for.
But I have had years of contented frushtration and happiness taking care of and sailing my boat.
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Old 27-03-2015, 13:57   #202
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
There is no logical or justifiable reason to own a boat. You cannot crunch enough numbers to make a reasonable decision to buy or not.
But if you have this insatiable need to have one then just do it. Frugal or not it will take more time and money than you planned for.
But I have had years of contented frushtration and happiness taking care of and sailing my boat.
eh?
Mine is coming in under budget on every quarter.
But then the boys are going out tomorrow and that could change it significantly.

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Old 27-03-2015, 14:00   #203
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
There is no logical or justifiable reason to own a boat. You cannot crunch enough numbers to make a reasonable decision to buy or not.
But if you have this insatiable need to have one then just do it. Frugal or not it will take more time and money than you planned for.
But I have had years of contented frushtration and happiness taking care of and sailing my boat.
Owning a boat is awful, nothing but headaches and expenses.

The only the WORSE than owning a boat...is NOT owning a boat.
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Old 27-03-2015, 14:22   #204
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
There is no logical or justifiable reason to own a boat. You cannot crunch enough numbers to make a reasonable decision to buy or not.
Oh, I don't know... My boat will soon be my only home. Sure seems logical to have one of those .
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Old 27-03-2015, 14:23   #205
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Oh, I don't know... My boat will soon be my only home. Sure seems logical to have one of those .
(shoulda bought a Cat)

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Old 27-03-2015, 14:46   #206
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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(shoulda bought a Cat)

Like one of these?



Not a lot of storage there .
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Old 27-03-2015, 15:39   #207
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
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Old 27-03-2015, 17:56   #208
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

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I like Weavis' definition. Frugality is not an absolute measure of the least price for the most benefit. It is, as he says, about getting the best value for the needed (not wanted) item or service. It is also relative to your needs and capabilities.
.
Mike, I really like this and would go one step further. The best way of doing business is where everyone gets value from a transaction. That is not the least price for the most benefit (for you) but in my experience it is the best benefit for you in the long run.
Everyone feels they have been dealt with fairly...
Price of everything comes down.

I least I learned something from all those communes.
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Old 27-03-2015, 18:25   #209
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

Finally we're talking cats. Mr. grumpy cat, AKA, Timmy Dekat, he has about 5000 sea miles under his belt, er, fur.

I should mention that I've been living on my boat full time for 8 years. It's makes very sound financial sense to own a boat, if it's your only home. Much less expensive then a dirt home. Gee my boat costs including maintenance and slip fees are less then property taxes on the last home I owned, many moons ago.
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Old 27-03-2015, 20:18   #210
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re: The Frugal (AKA poor) Sailor

I think if people are looking for a definition of 'the frugal sailor' they could look more closely at such esteemed predecessors as Sandy Mackinnon and his 'Voyage of Jack de Crow'; or Frank and Margaret Dye's 'Sailing on the Edge of Fear'; or even Charles Stock's 'Sailing Just for Fun'.

OK, so maybe Frank Dye has more in common with 'adventurers' like Serge Testa, or young Matt Rutherford's 'Solo the Americas', or perhaps even David Lewis' 'Ice Bird' adventures, but one can hardly argue the 'derring-do' angle for Stock, who sailed mostly weekends and holidays in his local English Channel waters, for years and years, sailing the same stretch of water.

But all did a lot with a little boat and not much money.

In recent years, Kiwi Jon Tucker and two of his sons emulated aspects of Kiwi David Lewis' trip in their home-built steel sloop Snow Petrel, and on a tight budget, but they had to equip the boat with lots more gear than Lewis did in the seventies, so should they have gone 'cheap' as he did, with only a sextant, or was the expense of the HF radio and GPS 'allowable' under the 'Rules of Frugality'? [tongue very firmly in cheek]

I think the key thing to note is that if you don't have a lot of cash, but still want to go sailing, you must by the nature of the beast demonstrate frugality, as per the dictionary definition.

Even Frank Dye shipped his boat to the USA, for example, and then flew out himself to sail the rugged east coast of Maine. Hardly a 'cheap' exercise, but it was no doubt cheaper than buying and fitting out a boat in the States to do the same trip. His was already set up for the job, and being only 16ft long, wasn't too expensive to ship.

Charter boat operators exist to serve those slightly less adventurous than Frank.

But is it 'cheap' to utilise a charter, rather than buying a boat yourself and coping with the ongoing bottomless pit of expenses? Or is this a 'frugal' option also?

I think we can all agree that anyone who A) has loads of cash, and B) throws money at a problem in order to solve it, probably isn't a frugal sailor.

But to argue that the owner of a large motor yacht is being frugal simply because they shop at local markets, or purchase diesel in bulk where it is most cost-effectively purchased, is to argue a non-sequiteur........anyone rich enough to afford a large motor yacht could easily have purchased a smaller one, or a second hand one, and saved a huge sum to enable them to sail more often and travel further. The latter approach should be considered frugal, I think.

But I do think we are getting off track, as the OP stated the notion of the 'frugal sailor' was seeking a bargain boat buy that enabled someone to sail who otherwise might have considered sailing to be beyond their means.

And of all the options suggested, trailer boats - what are called in this country 'trailer-sailers' - epitomise this approach. Trailed to the water, rigged and sailed, then de-rigged and trailed home again. Can even be trailed long distances to sail in another area much more quickly than one could sail there, for example, to fit in with limited holidays and time off work.

Most maintenance (and certainly 'haul-out' jobs) can be done in the driveway, by the owner. Being smaller anyway (around 30ft seems to be the max possible for a trailer boat) everything is smaller and thus 'cheaper' - or should that read, 'more cost-effective'....?

And where moorings are limited and marinas not cheap, keeping the boat on your driveway is both sensible and cost-effective, but also is an 'enabling' strategy, although it does perforce limit the size of the boats one can choose from.

In Oz, the national road transport rules prevent a car and trailer combo being greater than 19m in length overall, including overhangs (like a mast), so with a larger wagon or 4WD required to tow a larger trailer boat (again due to towing weight regs) the biggest boat probably can't be longer than 10m (33ft), allowing for 6m for the tow vehicle and 1.5m for the hitch bar, and 1.5m overhang for the mast. Total 19m.

Actually there is often disputation over the overhang length, but I have researched it carefully and in NSW where I live there is only a legal requirement to add a red flag if the overhang of the mast/boat is greater than 1.2m. The 'overall' length can't be more than 19m, so as long as your combo is within this it's legal.

So there are *some* limitations placed on self-towed boats, but as anyone needing to move a larger boat will know, there are towing firms that can do this legally (for a fee).

So if you have a large beam cat (ie: anything over 2.5m seems to be illegal in most places) there is often an 'oversize load' law that enables it to be hauled by a certified operator. So smaller cats with say a 6m beam might be OK, but anything over this would need special permissions and major dramas to move, which is why cats tend to go no further than the hard of the local marina.

So cat owners tend to opt for 'anchor out' as their frugal storage option, rather than a marina, but if SWMBO insists, then finding a 'cost-effective' marina berth can be desirable, but will not be 'as cheap' as anchoring out.

So perhaps larger cats are limited to those with more means than the 'most' frugal, although there are certainly enough Wharrams being lived aboard world-wide to perhaps put the lie to such an assertion.

So again, I think we'll have to agree that it is 'different strokes for different folks', and that one man's [sic] frugal is another's extravagance.

But how I wish we had the profligacy of AU$2000 boats in good condition that seems to be the case in the USA, and to a lesser extent Europe. In Oz we struggle to find anything larger than a dinghy for less than AU$5K, which seems to be about the benchmark for a 'fixer-upper 'glass monohull trailer boat.

I rarely see open-bridge-deck cats for less than AU$10K, and any Farrier that comes to the market in less than perfect condition will still ask around $10K for a homebuilt ply/glass boat from the seventies. Anything over 30ft is over $50K, and usually double that.

In the 30-40ft range, a 'bargain buy' in Oz is anything less than a grand a foot, so $15K for a 30fter is a bargain but will need major fitting out and prep work....usually.....there are occasional discrepancies to this rule.

So adding the cost of moorings, maintenance, marina fees, insurance (not cheap here) it is probably not a wonder few families opt for sailing, and it tends to be a boyzone thing.

We also don't have either the history of coastal sailing that you have in the US, UK and Europe, nor the coastal estuaries and rivers that enable this. We have few decent sized harbours, all of which tend to be crowded on nice weekends in summer, and our rivers tend to have dangerous bar crossings that make sailing the coast hazardous for small boats, thus tending to force people into larger, less cost-effective craft.

I know I'm generalizing, but the biggest number of boats in this country are small power boats - trailer boats to 6m length - and are mostly used for fishing. Easier to 'rig' and get into and out of the water, quicker to get from A to B, but certainly not 'cheap' to purchase - yet hundreds do so each year....at full retail price....!!

I don't know if there's an answer for us here, but certainly in the States cheap boat availability makes getting on the water a much more cost-effective proposition than it is here on Oz.

So are we less frugal, or is frugality more about location and availability, coupled with sailing traditions...???

And if,as the OP suggests, more people could be going sailing than currently do so, perhaps the question that needs to be asked is 'how do we make this clear to the wider population..?"

Aren't we CFers just preaching to the converted...???
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